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 Post subject: wide body rear for pilot
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Thought I would start seperte thread for kit. I ordered parts for new stock shock/stock mount arms. Have a few more clearence pics.


Attachments:
Resize of new 005.jpg
Resize of new 005.jpg [ 62.35 KiB | Viewed 1357 times ]
Resize of new 006.jpg
Resize of new 006.jpg [ 63.87 KiB | Viewed 1357 times ]
Resize of new 007.jpg
Resize of new 007.jpg [ 71.78 KiB | Viewed 1357 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
I reworked the trailing arms today and changed the lever ratio using the stock shock and mounts achieved 8.5 inches. I fell if I could get new 7.5 inch stroke shock with an eye to eye of 23".It wound increas to 10". the stock is 6'stroke and 20.5 eye to eye. I will call axis tommorow to see if the can build.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
I jipped work today and rework lever ratio #s and built some lower brakets. I now get 9" of travle use the wide body kit with the lever ratio. I satrted with the same bottom # as stock and worked from there. I found the new #'s lower the CG as well ncreased travle. By acident the new #'s match the hub arm angle look for it in the pics. I still fill if the upper mount is changed a little and new stroked shock I can 10 to 10.5 from it. I will not be able to do rear LT shocks untill I get them and adjust the rear arm back to where they were for that shock. Since the angle and lever ratio has changed the transition rate is also affected. I will test that one on track. I did make a second to third decrease to help it stay mid stroke longer before hitting on the main spring. I also decreased pre load to help this out. The new brackets are mock up and not runable untill a top and back reinforcement plates are welded in.

So heres the pics.


Attachments:
File comment: the relocate lower bracket, this changed the angle of the shock increasing the lever ratio
bottom ratio plates.jpg
bottom ratio plates.jpg [ 62.98 KiB | Viewed 1304 times ]
File comment: this angle is a stock shock mouted to the wide body less ratio bracket
stock ratio angle, wide  body.jpg
stock ratio angle, wide body.jpg [ 54.28 KiB | Viewed 1304 times ]
File comment: tihs angle is the works shock mounted to wide body mounted to the new ratio bracket
new ratio angle, wide body.jpg
new ratio angle, wide body.jpg [ 62.73 KiB | Viewed 1304 times ]
File comment: this is the full bottom # with new bracket
Bottom with new ratio.jpg
Bottom with new ratio.jpg [ 72.29 KiB | Viewed 1304 times ]
File comment: this is the full top out # with new bracket
top with new ratio, 9 inch of travle.jpg
top with new ratio, 9 inch of travle.jpg [ 72.15 KiB | Viewed 1304 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
hers some more. Please check # as we go I not so good in the math dept.


Attachments:
File comment: side view of new ratio bracket boted up to works shock
side view new ratio bracket.jpg
side view new ratio bracket.jpg [ 73.94 KiB | Viewed 1303 times ]
File comment: front view of new bracket bolted up to works shock
front view new ratio bracket.jpg
front view new ratio bracket.jpg [ 84.61 KiB | Viewed 1303 times ]
File comment: full bottom left side has stock with no bracket and on right works with new bracket. Notice the shock angle as well as the lowerarm angles
full bottom,One stock one works, works has new lever ratio.jpg
full bottom,One stock one works, works has new lever ratio.jpg [ 78.17 KiB | Viewed 1303 times ]
File comment: full top out with same items as noted on full bottom
Full topout, One stock one works new ratio.jpg
Full topout, One stock one works new ratio.jpg [ 77.43 KiB | Viewed 1303 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
some more for comparison.


Attachments:
view of stock wide body angle.jpg
view of stock wide body angle.jpg [ 86.3 KiB | Viewed 1296 times ]
view of new angle wide body.jpg
view of new angle wide body.jpg [ 85.3 KiB | Viewed 1296 times ]
Front side by side view.jpg
Front side by side view.jpg [ 88.21 KiB | Viewed 1296 times ]
Rear side by side.jpg
Rear side by side.jpg [ 83.75 KiB | Viewed 1296 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
a few close ups for comparsion. Notice CG's and shock and arm angles.


Attachments:
Rear stock works shocks.jpg
Rear stock works shocks.jpg [ 81.49 KiB | Viewed 1295 times ]
Rear wide body, works stock shocks,new ratio.jpg
Rear wide body, works stock shocks,new ratio.jpg [ 81.75 KiB | Viewed 1295 times ]
stock with works.jpg
stock with works.jpg [ 89.61 KiB | Viewed 1295 times ]
wide body with works and trx arms.jpg
wide body with works and trx arms.jpg [ 81.65 KiB | Viewed 1295 times ]
front view of stock,wide body trx arms and trx450.jpg
front view of stock,wide body trx arms and trx450.jpg [ 95.05 KiB | Viewed 1295 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Up date on shocks I found some one to make what I want. The new shocks will bolt up to lower relocate brackets and stock upper mounts. I was hoping for 10.5 to 11 but the shock with provide 12" travle with wide body kit. They will be dual rate with comp and rebound adjustments. I choose these because the LT axis shocks can only be made with compression adjustments due to the shaft lenght and major upper shock mount relocates . The long shock shaft can not be hollowed out for rebound adjustment. The new wide skocks can. I was told they new shocks could be made and get 12.5 but I only want 12 so as not to push the limits on the ratios. I was told I should have in two to three weeks. Hope to have for OCT run at LS. 12" up front and 12 in the rear could be fun.

I did some testing on front set up, surpisingly it handled pretty well. It walked over woops and handled the approaches on jump with out kicking. The wide rear had less body roll thru cornors. I still need to do more adjusting on the rear springs ,Too soft. I will increase pre load a little and see if not I will back off the pre load and make transition change. This is why I opped for dual rate on new.

That's it for now untill they arrrive. i will post pics when they arrive.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:02 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Bellevue WA I OWE Hoser $300.00
Well you rendered our pretty pilot fenders useless, haha.

Looks great!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:16 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
ha ha! Now that's gives me an idea. How about a fender extension poject or body kit. Thanks for the idea. got any others. I will start looking around and start sizeing up a prodatype. maybe extend the nerfs as well. how about arm guards with kick plates. Shock guards for the woods guys. Theres another day off work, thanks. Anybody interested in a sway bar set up for flat track. Time to get out pad and pencle and heaad to garage beats mowing the track.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:02 pm
Posts: 533
Location: Bellevue WA I OWE Hoser $300.00
Arm guards I would buy definitely. All the trails around here are burdened with rocks. I made some cheap ass ones out of sheet metal and its amazing on how dinged they are.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3161
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Next,project "work van". 22" wheels,wrap, hmm might be a good candidate for Pimp My Work Van. Did you see the ice cream truck pimped with the flatt screen for a menu,dreamsicle city? Im thinking automatic ladders firetruck style, with bucket, don't forget the bumps, you could fit many 12" woofs in the back, finish the Pilot 1st n get ready for OCT Ride


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
stix9567 wrote:
Next,project "work van". 22" wheels,wrap, hmm might be a good candidate for Pimp My Work Van. Did you see the ice cream truck pimped with the flatt screen for a menu,dreamsicle city? Im thinking automatic ladders firetruck style, with bucket, don't forget the bumps, you could fit many 12" woofs in the back, finish the Pilot 1st n get ready for OCT Ride


My neighbor refers to my truck as the ice cream truck, been trying to get him to call it the super hauler but he just laughs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Nothing here for sale,info on how to free for the taken. Got any pics on guards, Nothing cheap about them if they protect the arms. un bolt old and bolt up new. OK stixs you want to see 22 on van I see what I can do. Drakman, what's your favorite flavor. The way you drop the hammer on tiger I bet your a bomb pop knid a guy. You should get a lound speaker and drive by neighbor and see if he comes running then laugh and drive off. Made trip to the honda shop looking over fender extensions. Um. a lot to look over, some promising. I feel the support bracket for fender support may prove tuff as not to add to much weight to plastic.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:02 pm 
Online

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22106
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Nothing here for sale,info on how to free for the taken. Got any pics on guards, Nothing cheap about them if they protect the arms. un bolt old and bolt up new. OK stixs you want to see 22 on van I see what I can do. Drakman, what's your favorite flavor. The way you drop the hammer on tiger I bet your a bomb pop knid a guy. You should get a lound speaker and drive by neighbor and see if he comes running then laugh and drive off. Made trip to the honda shop looking over fender extensions. Um. a lot to look over, some promising. I feel the support bracket for fender support may prove tuff as not to add to much weight to plastic.


Thanks for sharing I think once your all done getting it dialed in your going to be extremely happy with the results, every change I made in my suspension felt much better than stock I wish I had 16" travel all around like a Drakart :-)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Your welcome and Thank You for allowing us hackers to post there fun. I can get 14 out of it but 16 would reguire frame mods would be cool thu. One thing to note is even at 14 " I could have widen it up another inch. The axles had enough slap in them at full top and droop to go wider. That is why I mocked them up dry for measurements. I topped and drooped it then slid axles in and out to make sure they had clearence and slid free without bind. The upper arm needs to have the thick piece that hold the ball joint angle changed 3 degrees to get the extra width and travle. This will allow the hub arm to rotate thu travle so it does not bind ball joint and hit shock. You also will need to make lower forward arm adjustment of 1/2 longer( easy to do loosen jam nuts and adjust out) to match rotation of hub arm thu stroke. Next is to build bracket for lower shock mount this moves the shock not only out but forward 1/4" so it runs true with new hub setting and not bind thu stroke. When I build new upper it will be adjusted and experiment with heim and off center bushings to help with bind of ball joint.

The pilot will never be a drake,there in a class of there own but sure is fun chasing them around the dunes. The tigers are one of the best single seaters I have ever seen and thee preformance is out standing. The attetion to detail is show room quality. I know If it wasent for the drakes I would have been happy with what I had and chasing quads. This is why I oped for a build that could be changes back to stock or a diff widths I do a lot of different ridding and by taking an hour I can set up for who ever I ride with. I seen you post on Yoda arms installed for Mrs. "H", does it provide any advantages over stock. width,forward, adjustable ? They do look nice. He does nice work.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Ok I did it agian made another change. Added triple adjust. I found that the body role and the push thru the mid part of the cornor required either a lot of transition space adjustment and ride hieght adjustments and combination of both so I added low speed compression to shock. and change compessed lenght by adding one inch. For adsjustment purposes turning a knob would be easier without taking shock apart to add and remove transion spacers. The compresse lenght will allow for more mid travle as I power thru the mid of the cornor at speed. The transition spacers and preload only allowed 2.5 mid travle thru cornor and allowing the the front to unload to quick. How I know is I raised the bump stop then rode thru cornor and measued the mid travle postion between settings. It was causing me to slow thu to keep front planted. I did try to incease and decrease front setting but was worse. The shock angle and trx front may be the colpert for this so I will attempt with diff offset to confirm.new shock up 12" front and 13" in rear. and cost of $2,200.00 for both sets. Shocks now dual rate with cans, high and low speed compression and rebound adjustable. big body and spung using stock upper mounts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
For those watching the #, the new lever ratios 1.5 and with bump stop limiting to 13"is 1.4444.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Rear dirt/woods set up. I built new lower shock bracket moving the shock up and in from the dune bracket. This raised the GC numbers and shortend up the wheel base. this alos accept stock rims and after market 10" 4/5 offset. I used douglas 1.90 4 on 130. This change the lever ratio as well now getting 8.5" from stock rear works shocks. I found the high GC did tend to add a tippy feeling but was not enough to keep it from comming around when tured to tight on power. The sag of 3" was used with the fisrt rate transition change to +1/4" and -1/8 in the second. As it transitioned to the main spring the body role would bit the rear tire and pull straight like some one grabed the front and tugged on it allowing it to drive straight out of the cornor. I still fill the transition valving is off due to shock angle change. I hope when new adjustable shocks are installed I can just adjust the high side of the compression and smooth it out. The setting also allows for around 35% of sag a little to much for dirt. On the plus side it handle the kicker better at the rate. I set up a 2,3 and 4' kicker and it handle all well. I even found at the font like to walk over them instead of lifting the front. At slower speed the 3 and 4 would send it skyward. Once again I belive this is where the slow speed compression can make a diff allowing the whels to walk over instead of lift thru to stiff compression at lower speed. The tender spring on the dual rate will also play big part in this as well. Iould recomend if some one did this they have compression adjustable at least for propper setting. If you have works you can call Sandy there and have him add clickers to the cans if you have them. He could also recolate the transion rate and adjust rebound valving and spring rate. Works can not build my new shock due to shaft size and lenght. Bummer, I like them. I did try thu.

Here is some pics of the woods bracket and sand for comparson. I also will provide one of the trailing arm breakdowns FREE of charge yes free. You can get these at any race shop and build your own. The trailing arm is a 5/8 race car swedge tube and the heims are cromolly self lube type 1/2" by 5/8. you can cheaper ones but fo a $1.50 more get the good stuff. This same set up can be done in 5/8 and 3/4 standard,chromolly and AL. choice is yours.

Wait a miniute there not metric. No, you have two choices there. Drill out to 1/2 fro 12mm or do what I did by using brass shim material. I like the idea of choice since there is a lot of worn pilot hubs and frame mounts. If the 122 is loose take it to 1/2" and if good use shim or a combo of both. advantage is that if you mangle it up pull shim drill and it tight again. Youcould also increae to 3/4 by 3/4 an dshim down to 14mm ect ect, you get the idea. The parts are cheaper and adjustment are endless. I opped to shim because you can always go bigger. The long hub bolt and lower frme mount tend to wear because there no maintanced properly. This is a quick fix. the shim stock comes 12" long and can be cut to size. I use tubbin cutter cuttin long and filing to fit since the tube cutter tends to bend ends it and fit to tight on 122 mm bolt filling end down with flat basterd file does the trick. the miss align spacer can also be found at race shop and can be cut and filed to fit using the 1/2 rod ends the spacer slides right over the shim stock make a noice tight fitted assembly. The brass will also ad a rebuildable featur the the rod ends. Just replace and put in new stock bolt.

OK enough for now look at pics I know "H" likes pics.

Yea this can be done with the stock set up as well the swedge tube comein 1" increments, 12" 13" 14" ect. and are cheap. Advantage free up droop binding and use that 1.5" of travle as well quicken up the rebound due to free movment of rear end weight. How you ask ,put a lighter AL rim and stock tire the shock has to work harder to rebound the unsprung weight on that portion since the steel rim and added weight has been removed and it binds on full droopp and then rear starts packing( shock not rebounding quick enough loosing effecive travle in next bump) taking your 7 inch to 5 then 4 then the rear kicks and start the whle thing over.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
OOPS! here the pics.


Attachments:
File comment: sand set up
Rear set up sand, stock works.jpg
Rear set up sand, stock works.jpg [ 81.75 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
File comment: woods /dirt set up
Rear set up dirt, stock works.jpg
Rear set up dirt, stock works.jpg [ 81.04 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
Rear lower shock bracket, woods set up, stock works 10 inch,4 by 5 offset.jpg
Rear lower shock bracket, woods set up, stock works 10 inch,4 by 5 offset.jpg [ 67.99 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
Shock relocate lower mount Sand set up.jpg
Shock relocate lower mount Sand set up.jpg [ 69.71 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
Shock relocate lower mount Dirt set up.jpg
Shock relocate lower mount Dirt set up.jpg [ 73.85 KiB | Viewed 1128 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
more.


Attachments:
File comment: diff bracket for side by side comparsion
Rear relocate brackets, Woods and Dune.jpg
Rear relocate brackets, Woods and Dune.jpg [ 55.81 KiB | Viewed 1127 times ]
File comment: trailing arm relocate assembly
Trailing arm relocate for LT axles and support bracket with shim and miss align spacers.jpg
Trailing arm relocate for LT axles and support bracket with shim and miss align spacers.jpg [ 56.96 KiB | Viewed 1127 times ]
File comment: assembly unit parts
partws for new arm, longer bolt, shim,heim and mis align spacers.jpg
partws for new arm, longer bolt, shim,heim and mis align spacers.jpg [ 59.66 KiB | Viewed 1127 times ]
File comment: parts break down
new arm part breakdown.jpg
new arm part breakdown.jpg [ 69.57 KiB | Viewed 1127 times ]
File comment: shim stock
Shim stock for metric set up to 12mm.jpg
Shim stock for metric set up to 12mm.jpg [ 87.87 KiB | Viewed 1127 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
couple more. Also most forgot the important part for wide body kit. You can call ATV racing and buy new upper arms and axles and lower trailing arms or a combanation of each and do the rest your self. Please remembe this has had limited testing so it's do at your own risk and was done by a back yard hacker with limited knowledge and tools. I'am a jack of all and master of one.

I contribute this project to the poster that ask how do I fix the lower frame mountes that wollered out to 1/2" with out cutting frame. He got me thinking. Yea, I was curious my self.


Attachments:
File comment: swedge tube, rod end and locknuts.
new arm part and price.jpg
new arm part and price.jpg [ 87.62 KiB | Viewed 1125 times ]
Resize of dirt set up 020.jpg
Resize of dirt set up 020.jpg [ 72.38 KiB | Viewed 1125 times ]
File comment: Did not want to think it wasn't around during the process. It's where I got the idea for tag
good old Red and White.jpg
good old Red and White.jpg [ 68.52 KiB | Viewed 1125 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
Did you purchase the upper arms and all the trailing arms from atvr? How much was everything you purchased from atvr? I want to do this also Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
I got some beer for ya if you want to put a kit together for me............


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:19 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Check out atv racing web site all or some of the parts are avalible there. The upper arm and axles are atv racing and the lower stuff is from the race shop.You can make uppers of find axles else where But lets support a shop that help us offroaders alos I picked his brain a little ok a lot. Not many people out there that is willoing to help others on something new. I use smillys racing wichita. You should find same parts at any dirt track race shop. Atv racing offers two type of lower arms standerd heims and HD-chromolly. They use a cromolly tube with welded bung so changing lower arm tubes will need to be theres. If you use race shop stuff you can choose size and type and find equall replacements anywhere. The cheap enouhg to carry spares also. each tube is 12 to 14 dollors. Each rod end in chromolly is 13 to 15 dollors. Each tailing arm needs 1- tube, 1- right and 1- left rod end and nut, and 2- sets of miss alignment spacers and 4" of shim material. You can use new lower arm with stock width and improve suspion action on the rear or go wide body using stock of lt shock via brackets. One thing to note on dune set up is designed for big body shock and springs. The woods bracket is set up fo stock shock dimension. This is to say the LT shock spring on the wide body kit is 3.25 OD. I will make new upper arm allowing for the lt shock to clear arm. ATV racing arm will not work on the woods shock bracket wide body with LT big body shock. The angle and placment on ball joint of hub will need to be moved back and change angle in order to achieve greater clearnce and movement. I will try as sugested by the board to add adjustble hiems on upper so it can be rolled back to achieve the clearence and angle( caster adjustment on upper). Right now the caster is set by lower arms and the upper is fixed. This causes some miss alignment on shock which the new shock bracket corrects. I will post lower arm lenght for you. Rember not all are the same. One thing about new upper is it wil allow both stock shock location to be used. This way the kit can be done as funds allow and still ride.

Tools use for work : Hacker bench: mini drill press,hack saw, hand held band saw,drill bits(indexing),flat baster fill,wire feed welder,6" grinder, 8" vise,welding magnets, pencle and paper, and SAFTY GOGGLES. Hand tools; sockets and wrenches.

Please, measure up and make sure you want to do it before buying and puting on parts and doing work. I might like but you may not. Result will vary between settings. We all drive different and diff riding style. I tend to drive with a heavly throttle and get aggressive attacking terrian. For hill climbing and general riding it may not work as well and be wasted money and time.

I should thank those who talked with me before procedding. All those who let me look over there machines and ansawered question. There ansawers helped me get handle on combanation.Neils at atv racing,Sandy at work preformance shocks,Dave at mid america power sports, Fireball racing ,smilly racing. Last and most important Tobey my wife. She provided me with vidal feed back and played devils advocate.

I no longer make parts or do Engine work for others. I will help in any other way thu so you can do it yourself.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:35 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Forgot to adress pricing. If you have time to invest in shoping around you can same some money. Check his (ATVR)web site for arms and axles. Please keep Yoda front kit in mind The wide body rear likes a wide front end( more stable in cornors and over bumps). I have no data on his front kit. "H" and other using his kit should be able to provide info. You could also use atv racing arms and build your own bump kit retaining stock drum and hubs. I built mine for around $150.00 and it bolt up verses weld in kit. Nothing I did was pemanite it all can be removed and returned to stock. Plus It may not work and needs to be changed eaiser to unbolt than cut and weld. I even got the stock front brake lines to work. Really do not like but untill I make sure it work I will not change( looks nasty).


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