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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
It's not atvr but its back yard hacker type kit. I should call it low budget. Ok, real low budget. I know "H" likes pics so here you go.


Attachments:
Bump kit parts breakdown.jpg
Bump kit parts breakdown.jpg [ 73.43 KiB | Viewed 1065 times ]
Idler arm parts.jpg
Idler arm parts.jpg [ 64.52 KiB | Viewed 1065 times ]
Idler with bushing installed.jpg
Idler with bushing installed.jpg [ 55.41 KiB | Viewed 1065 times ]
Pressnig sleave in bushings.jpg
Pressnig sleave in bushings.jpg [ 68.6 KiB | Viewed 1065 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
idelrs assemebled.jpg
idelrs assemebled.jpg [ 72.75 KiB | Viewed 1063 times ]
Chromolly hiems for idler mounting to bracket.jpg
Chromolly hiems for idler mounting to bracket.jpg [ 65.18 KiB | Viewed 1063 times ]
Heims mounted to plate with bushing bolt.jpg
Heims mounted to plate with bushing bolt.jpg [ 49.9 KiB | Viewed 1063 times ]
Idler mounted to plate.jpg
Idler mounted to plate.jpg [ 55.09 KiB | Viewed 1063 times ]
Idler,mounting plate and hardware.jpg
Idler,mounting plate and hardware.jpg [ 65.65 KiB | Viewed 1063 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
Idler mounting plate in place, bolt to rear a-arm brackets( tabs).jpg
Idler mounting plate in place, bolt to rear a-arm brackets( tabs).jpg [ 70.63 KiB | Viewed 1060 times ]
Ideler bolted to arm tabs.jpg
Ideler bolted to arm tabs.jpg [ 70.62 KiB | Viewed 1060 times ]
Idler,bracket and tie rod assembly.jpg
Idler,bracket and tie rod assembly.jpg [ 65.49 KiB | Viewed 1060 times ]
Bolted up side view.jpg
Bolted up side view.jpg [ 76.92 KiB | Viewed 1060 times ]
bottom look of assembly.jpg
bottom look of assembly.jpg [ 80.76 KiB | Viewed 1060 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3411
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
BRAVO! Rich,Great work Mate!
I have been following your threads with interest.
Stop puutin' ya self down too,we ALL know your better than that! :-) ...Baz
PS. Need to do a R & D on LTPilot anti sway racing bar next!...For ME! :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
that's a nice set-up in my book, nice work, hows it on the trails?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:48 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5244
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
you are a freaking genious!!! A real simple way of doing that!!! I might have to get one once I get the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) back in and everything else buttoned up on the ppe...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Thank you for the kind words. As far as the handling goes it works well. Rember its a bias opion since I have only had one other test it. The off camber hit are asorbed thru the idle bushing and bracket set up to transmit that force into bracket and disapate it away from the mounting tabs. I have to think Dad for that it was based off a B-52 wing support He developed back in the 60's. They had problem cracking ( to ridged). He told me once son "it must flex in order not to break". I though at the time he was talking about the fat on my rear fad the belt he used. So I tried to first take up shock load via urathane bushing than what left be distrubited thu bracket focacing it away from mounting tabs. What you don't see is the back side of bracket and the way the hiems stradle the bracing. One other thing the bushing does is to keep it from locking under that shock force. I also added angle so it would shere that losd off angler instead of a head on which creates shock load residence. Just a theroy thu. no engineering behind it. Man, I like triangles. This is also why I choice the trx arm so the rake would help combat this forces smmothing out the steering. No more sore elbows. This is also why I chose to go with low/high speed compression on shocks. This will affect dive and roll control thu cornors hopfully smoothing them out more allowing for more high speed in and out of cornor. I need all the speed I can chasing draks.

Come on Turbo start drawing and hacking. I have looked into a sway set up based on a razor and trx for data purposes. A side note on steering Enter to fast and it likes to come around so I will take 1 deg out of caster untill new shocks get here it's a transition rate causing this. Baz the new rear shock angle also have an effect on the sway and help it come out straight. Once dialed in I will share results.

Agian Thanks. Feel free to add anthing to help there always room for improvment.


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 Post subject: nice
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:17 pm
Posts: 38
Location: Greenville, SC
Nice work - where is a good place to find poly-u bushings? did you make those or buy? Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Yes widely available. I used a set from Rancho. Once again I tried to use part I could find on the fly and is common. In this case it is a Chevy front spring eye bushing found at any off road shop. The part # is RS971 It is 1-1/8 " OD bushing with a 7/16 ID sleave (sleve= the steel insert that goes into the poly bushing). I just cut them off to fit my bushing. The external bushing I used is found a any farm and ranch supply. It is a tractor 3- point linkage part. The part # is Speec co-B8312YBU, lift arm bushing. This piece is is 1-1/8 Id and 1-7/16 OD. the poly will push in then once the sleve is installed it gets nice and snug. I also cut it to size. I then welded the tie rod angle piece right to it forming the idler arm. I used grade 8 bolt and lock nut thu sleeve. I used 7/16 chromoly hiems with teflon inserts for support to flex bracket( backing plate) they will self lubracate and are cheap to replace and easy to find at any stock car race shop,buggy shop ect.

I should also mention if stock and stock works are used no bump kit is needed just have new tie rods made or do a "H" mod and lenghten. You will experence some feed back in steering with a non bump kit thu. For experminting with tie rods get some wooden dowell 7/16 and use a right and left nut to semi thread and then use for mock up. Saves time and money. I used stock Honda tie rods for kit. The short ones are 400 ex cut and new right hand threads added. the long ones are stock leenght trx 450. Rember mock up is no load steering( jacked up on stands). I have ordered a long set and new HD for my mod. You should be able to find 12 mm right hand die at any speciality tool store. mine cost $6.00. that is why I cut the right hand thread side off and then rethreaded so it would twist out the tie rod end for adjustment. The additional right and left luts can be bought at honda shop. I used stock honda pilot for short and trx 450 for long since I used a trx set up. Once again finding parts on the fly for repairs.

Please rember if your trying to duplacate this is an unproven set up with only three hours of testing. If you find a way to improve please share.

Note on binding: If you extend the idler to far forwrad it will bind steering prior to full stering lock. I am working on new revised set up to add a greater margin of error. I pose a thery of shiming the flex bracket back via spacer. This will help but also creates addtionl stress on tabs. In order to reduce stress I will build offset flex plate and test. I will install thermal snensor on flex plate to get flex plate heat ( metal get hot when bent / flexed from monclule displacment)reading at tab and idler mounting hiems and convert to BTU to measure stress. I will use the #1 flex plate as a base line for the revised flex bracket measurment to determine if any additionl stress is encountered or created.

I know babble babble babble, sorry.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:17 pm
Posts: 38
Location: Greenville, SC
thanks for the info you are very detailed in your write ups and that is most helpful. Have you cycled your suspension and measured the toe change? One thing you may want to check is the alignment of the idler arm in relation to a-arm mounting points. you want the outer tie rod to travel in the same arc as the a-arms so as the arms move up and down you don't get push/pull from the tie rod.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Nice. I have done that and it does toe in and out. I picked the location of the outer tie rod( long one) to achieve the toe setting I wanted. The center line of pivot and tie rod when in full lock did not work. It caused the front to push and vier on hard compression landing and hits. So I opted for toe out on compressioon and toe in on extended( droop) and 1/2" toe in at sag. The inter set of rods ( short ones) set longer will causse the front to ove rotate and hit arms as well as bind steering. I fell it may have something to do with the trx set up and the pilot geo on mounting points I can not calculte the rates, lack of knowledge. So I went old school ad did adjustments on track untill I achieved a good compromise. Going straight easy turning at speed and landing hard off camber more diffacult. I think I have some pics for you to mole over for discussion. Maybe a chnage in in the location may help thanks I also used a compison rate from the four wheeler since its a trx set up that rakes. The inter tie rod is set in bound of pivot pionts on the trx. The trx also has the same toe movment thruu travle. What help the most was caster change to quicken then back out to a slwer setting untill I found what worked best at different speeds. The atvr set up I do believe uses a in line set up. I wil spend some time in garage today moling over your thought as I work on rear race set up.

If you don't mind I will bounch some ideas off ya to improve design. Thanks for your input. I like input.

With stock shock set up its almost void. the lt shock set up however it does make a diff.


Attachments:
File comment: toe setting 1/2" in at sag( 3'' from extended)
at sag ,front.jpg
at sag ,front.jpg [ 88.93 KiB | Viewed 937 times ]
File comment: front view of full dropp ( extended). This ones is a 13.5 inch travle which I backed off the 12 with bump stop at 11.5 so the toe would not be as great. It could extend to 14 but the toe is too great and maxes out ball joints
new front lt at full top out( extended).jpg
new front lt at full top out( extended).jpg [ 80.47 KiB | Viewed 937 times ]
File comment: front view of toe at full bottom( compressed) I used this for new shock compressed lenght eye to eye
new front lt at full bottom (compressed).jpg
new front lt at full bottom (compressed).jpg [ 74.16 KiB | Viewed 937 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
I thought we want to give some thought to scrub and the scrub angle as well since were on the topic of toe. Tire scrub is a lot more on lt shocks so I changed the scrub angle via different offset rim and taller tire. This is why it ended up toed in. Yes I made a camber adjustment as well. The upper and lower arms line ( verticaly)up differently from trx. The uppers are pushed out wider on the pilot. The only way to set is use a complete adjustable set on front.

Heres a pic of first mock up using the cener line of pivots. It did not work. Also is a pic of upper and lower adjustable at hub.


Attachments:
File comment: This is the first bump idler I built that lined up and did not work.It was a 1 to 1 and was to quick and over rotated as well binded tie rod end
bump #1 mock up.jpg
bump #1 mock up.jpg [ 84.62 KiB | Viewed 935 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
Wow on your setup you have too much bumpsteer. It looks like your moving more then 2 inches per tire through your travel. heres some pics of my setup. Its close to atvrs. Also the closer you get the tie rod to level with your arms the less bumpsteer you'll have. The measurement of your tierod from the lower aarm mount on your spindle should match the space on your frame where your tierod is and the aarm mounts to your frame. To much toe out on full compression will result in bent parts in your steering.


Attachments:
bs2.jpg
bs2.jpg [ 38.6 KiB | Viewed 949 times ]
bs3.jpg
bs3.jpg [ 37.55 KiB | Viewed 949 times ]
bumpsteer.jpg
bumpsteer.jpg [ 49.83 KiB | Viewed 949 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
You can adjust the throw of the wheel by changing your tierod hole on the knuckles you made.You can see my other hole on my knuckles in some of the pictures.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22077
Location: Chicago
shoubadaba wrote:
Wow on your setup you have too much bumpsteer. It looks like your moving more then 2 inches per tire through your travel. heres some pics of my setup. Its close to atvrs. Also the closer you get the tie rod to level with your arms the less bumpsteer you'll have. The measurement of your tierod from the lower aarm mount on your spindle should match the space on your frame where your tierod is and the aarm mounts to your frame. To much toe out on full compression will result in bent parts in your steering.


Do you have larger versions of these pictures?

If your having problems resizing your pics you can email them to me I will do it for you...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Thanks for the help and tips. I spent four hours yesterday on front end. I did try moving the outer rod out in line and found that it made it worse. It lacks about 1" from being in line with pivots. It sounds like time for a total redesign. If 2" is the max I will use it as a guide for proper fit. I changed the angles of hole,location and holes and positions. As well moving bracket from first location to + and - 1". The further forward the worse and back and 1/2 a little better. I wondering if the trx arm on there has a bearing on it and hole new design will be required or change arms. I,ll give it a couple of days and doodle. So for know it get a thumbs down and I will work from there. Please keep the ideas comments comming.

Thanks Rich.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
You can also adjust the bumpsteer by the caster of the spindle. Mine are at 4%. Buy the crucial measurement is the space between the lower aarm and the tierod they should match on each end. Not the lenght as much as rise from each other on each end. You might want to try and have your knuckles/pivots swing the opposite way. But you cant without cutting up the foot tub. I tried to lay it out without cutting it but there was no way. Good luck mine took me 2 weeks to get it right.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
Ultimately you want no movement in the tires through the travel( It can be done) I have maybe 1/8th of an inch of bumpsteer total for both tires. More if I run less caster.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
16 hoours later I have this to report.

Well I tore it done and set it back to netural ( zero) and started over. I move the tie rods in line and it was worse. I could only get 6" of travle before it started to toe. I tried three difference elevation on the rod to confirm it was not the rod angle in relation to vertical as well moved it forward and back three inches to see if it made a difference and it did not.

So I took a new approach. When in dought check it out. I put 450 on stand and started collecting data for comparison. I found that the 450 toes in and out as well when it reaches it full extend and compression. The interesting thing was as it reached full compression it started to toe back. So I did what most would do and try to duplicate it on the conversion. I found the the rod angle forward +2 and down -1 and the rod lenght ball joint to joint -1/2" achieved the same reaction at 13 " of travle. I locke down the idler and ran thru motion. The #2 idler was changed to meet this configuration and the next herdle to overcome is the steering quickness. it to fast. The whell hit the arm before the steering arm hits it stop. The stop lacks 1/4". I played with the lever ration on the idler and found no matter what angle and ratio I used it achieved the same action. The inner tie rod is in 2.5 inches for pivot center line. I believe its due to the geo of the trx arms so the pilot atvr long travle set up will not work . On the plus side the front turn in quickens and try to match the other front turn out.

How to resolve. I will build a working modle scaled down out of popcicle stick and drill holes in modle to to adjust using pins untill I achieve a desiderd result. Not good at math got to go old school. I also did comparison on steering stem and the tie rod end spacing is different accounting for the wheel lock issue. I have considered makeing a change to the steering stem but want to keep it all bolt up orignal. I do have old wore out stem for resurche and modafacitons.

Yes I will post pics of my school project. I'll even get Dad to help. Elemrs glue and popcicle stixs. I wonder if I could get Drakman to sell me some ice cream out of the Tiger hauler for project.

Final note on toe. The toe change as it rakes is pretty cool.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
I hope you figure it out because it looks awsome. Is your upper and lower aarm ends (where they meet the spindle)as they travel up and down staying together. I mean is there any roll forward or backwards in the spindle as is moves through the travel?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3157
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Turbotexas wrote:
you are a freaking genious!!! A real simple way of doing that!!! I might have to get one once I get the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) back in and everything else buttoned up on the ppe...

Its that darn white glove, its got magical powers...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Ok thought about a for a day and bought new gloves. I rework the left side and fixed the issues with old kit. I can know after rework arms and kit get 16" of travle. Yes I said 16". At 16" it bindup the ball joints and tie rods. I called my shock supplier and they have not made fronts yet so I changed the stroke adding 3/4" which will put me at 13.5" in front. I have some pics for comparison. Left side fixed right side old kit. I will do right side next and test. I also solved the wheel lock issue not allowing the steering stem to lock before wheel hitting arm. This rework cost me 6hr and one nights sleep. I hate it when I mess up. I do feel it worth it. I still have to set up caster and camber on new kit. It's a good start. So heres the pics.


Attachments:
old bump kit, at full droop,  right side.jpg
old bump kit, at full droop, right side.jpg [ 80.6 KiB | Viewed 826 times ]
Reworked bump kit, full droop,  left side.jpg
Reworked bump kit, full droop, left side.jpg [ 78.21 KiB | Viewed 826 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
some more comparisons


Attachments:
old bump kit, at sag,  right side.jpg
old bump kit, at sag, right side.jpg [ 77.06 KiB | Viewed 825 times ]
Reworked bump kit, at sag,  left side.jpg
Reworked bump kit, at sag, left side.jpg [ 81.23 KiB | Viewed 825 times ]
old bump kit, at full bottom,  right side.jpg
old bump kit, at full bottom, right side.jpg [ 75.85 KiB | Viewed 825 times ]
Reworked bump kit, full bottom,  left side.jpg
Reworked bump kit, full bottom, left side.jpg [ 81.96 KiB | Viewed 825 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
Side note: look at sag and droop pics follow tie rod inward and see where it was relocated future in bound and down as well as forward and changed to ratio on idler. Once tested I will make new idlers. I hacked up the old and welded on new configeration. I will also post paper work showing measurments and angles and relation ship to arm pivot points. Please feel free to add comments if I can improve. Thanks Rich.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
oops! in, up, and forward. Sorry. I also rotated inside ball joint 180 deg


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