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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
Nice day here at the homestead. I decided to break out the bikes. Mrs Adnoh first. I have just under an hour on here new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and time to dial in the jetting. I will share my plug work.

My fist set of pics is with a new plug installed when the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) was built and pre jetted for brake in. You will find the result interesting I hope. The setting on carb was neddle in mid position and 195 main using a champion N4-C.


Attachments:
File comment: plug #1 break in plug looking good?
Plug #1.jpg
Plug #1.jpg [ 94.75 KiB | Viewed 1368 times ]
File comment: Plug in hacker vise ready to be hacked
Time to cut up.jpg
Time to cut up.jpg [ 114.53 KiB | Viewed 1368 times ]
File comment: Ahhhh, theres the ring for measuring
Removing cover to expose smoke ring.jpg
Removing cover to expose smoke ring.jpg [ 94.87 KiB | Viewed 1368 times ]
File comment: Does the plug color look right?
measuring smoke ring .jpg
measuring smoke ring .jpg [ 110.48 KiB | Viewed 1368 times ]
File comment: The reading showes it's fat, (rich) but is it. My ear says no it's lean. lets find out
plug #1  reading.jpg
plug #1 reading.jpg [ 117.05 KiB | Viewed 1368 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:06 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: San Diego
Hey, I have that same $8.00 caliper!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:45 am
Posts: 1023
Location: hole above ground
koool nice way of doing it
I like it
Thanks Speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
Plug #2. setting is the same mid position and 195 main. This is why you do not use old plug for plug chops, they will miss read. Always us new plug and get accurate reading or you could lean it out and OOCH. llok and see what I mean.


Attachments:
File comment: Plug #2 gaped and ready to install for test
Plug #2.jpg
Plug #2.jpg [ 112.34 KiB | Viewed 1362 times ]
File comment: Plug #2 after warm up and speed run. Plug color ok?
Plug #2 after run.jpg
Plug #2 after run.jpg [ 127.29 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
File comment: #1 and #2
Plug #1 cut and #2 after run.jpg
Plug #1 cut and #2 after run.jpg [ 110.93 KiB | Viewed 1362 times ]
File comment: #2 cut and ready to measure. see the dif in plug color and smoke ring
Plug #2 cut.jpg
Plug #2 cut.jpg [ 107.81 KiB | Viewed 1362 times ]
File comment: Plug #2 mesuring up ring
plug #2 mesuring it up.jpg
plug #2 mesuring it up.jpg [ 90.29 KiB | Viewed 1362 times ]
File comment: Plug #2 lean reading. UM, same jetting new plug accurate reading. Ear right, Plug #1 WRONG.
Plug #2 , lean reading.jpg
Plug #2 , lean reading.jpg [ 114.69 KiB | Viewed 1362 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Some info

view ... ug+reading



Image


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
Ok comfirmed it's lean. I will same you the babble and tell you I upped the main to a 205 and dropped the neddle one clip osition.

FYI on motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Stock "A" bore hacker clean up and port work, with hacker head. 39mm carb, stock pipe.


Attachments:
File comment: Remove battery and driven and change jet
Easy access.jpg
Easy access.jpg [ 122.27 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
File comment: Plug #3 after run. I like the looks here
Plug #3.jpg
Plug #3.jpg [ 118.94 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
File comment: See the diff between the three. Top to bottom 1,2 and 3.
all three plugs.jpg
all three plugs.jpg [ 120.09 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
File comment: Mesuring #3 and looking good
meassuring up #3.jpg
meassuring up #3.jpg [ 140.85 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
File comment: Yes I,am there .080 or real close. This should do.
Plug #3 spot on. Looking for .080.jpg
Plug #3 spot on. Looking for .080.jpg [ 119.56 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Ok comfirmed it's lean. I will same you the babble and tell you I upped the main to a 205 and dropped the neddle one clip osition.

FYI on motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Stock "A" bore hacker clean up and port work, with hacker head. 39mm carb, stock pipe.



39mm PWK ?

I ran a 162 main on my full mod Pilot with the 39mm PWK

What needle you running?

No way you should be that big on the main, something is wrong.. If you were turning 9000+ RPM I could see you running a main that big.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
The six dollors for plugs and two hours labor is worth it long term. Plus it's fun Ithought I would share to help explain some the reading material out there on plug reading. A picture is worth a thousand words. Yes it will be the same for four stroks as well. I do it on my 450 as well but the plug just cost more. Do you see why I do not trust old plugs for chop reading. The reading can foul you. Rember this is sharing only and not to be used as a guide. This is why there called chops.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:46 am
Posts: 158
Location: michigan
Just out of curiosity how long do you run the Engine when doing a plug chop? Like ten or fifteen minutes or something? I have to say this is a very helpful thread for me. Everyone was talking plug chops and I had no idea what it was. Thanks.

JIm


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
I run a 195 in the DCP so the 205 don't surprise me any. The basics for this Engine is the DCP design with a different port duration and diff CR and BEMP. I have 48 HR on DCP Engine. The flow porting with head mod likes a healty dose of fuel. The vacume pulse is strong with a greater duration between pressure pulses. I hook up vacume and pressure guage to motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) during bench testing to get an idea on charge strenght.I hope theres nothing wrong I have a lot of time invested in this Engine. I did air check the Engine twice. Put an hour on her motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) today during testing and will pull head to check flow balance.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
What I do is Gap the plug install and run around yard for ten to fifteen minutes on track then do five 1/4 mill pulls down the yard then Start at other end of yard 1/4 mile run to back hit burm and WOT (Wide Open Throttle) all the way back Lock up rear brake hit kill switch slide to stop and let cool down to pull plug then put in bag install used plug to get back to garage then hack up. With the new plug the ring showes up easier to read. If nothing is wrong with motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) as "H" suggested.
"H" should prbely chime in here and get his input on this I may be wrong, hope not.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
I run a 195 in the DCP so the 205 don't surprise me any. The basics for this Engine is the DCP design with a different port duration and diff CR and BEMP. I have 48 HR on DCP Engine. The flow porting with head mod likes a healty dose of fuel. The vacume pulse is strong with a greater duration between pressure pulses. I hook up vacume and pressure guage to motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) during bench testing to get an idea on charge strenght.I hope theres nothing wrong I have a lot of time invested in this Engine. I did air check the Engine twice. Put an hour on her motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) today during testing and will pull head to check flow balance.


What needle you running?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
don't know never read it. What I did do is when I installed the carb I removed main jet( came with a 175) for strat up and heat cycles. Then I set the neddle in the full lean position and then took for ride. I set air screw and idol then rode a round a while. Pulled hard off idol untill 5/8 throttle so I new it was not lean. Then after a couple of heat run I put in 215 and raisd the needle to mid position for more time on motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) checking mid pull and it fell off around 7/8. after a half hour of horsing around I changed down to 195 and left neddle in mid postion to which it clean out and knew it was lean( plug #2. Put in old spare plug raising the neddle all the way up and still lean so up to 205 to which it finaly stumbled at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) after 1/8 mile pull So droped needle one clip position and did plug chop #3. This was the babble part I left out.

I could probly thin out neddle a little and drop main but the off idol mid to top pull is fine It will pull off idol as well as throttle chop and back into it lifting the front powering all the way thu no hesitation at all. For others reading, the main has an effect on the flow rate on neddle. If neddle is to fat or wrong tapper it will not stumble on top and stay lean no matter what main is in it. So when you jump like I did from 195 to 205 a neddle setting change is in order because of the incresed flow rate on neddle If doing this and mid range suffers then a nedle change would be in order. Looking at plug #2 at .062 I knew a 200 main would still be lean and put me around .074. You could say I've do this a few times.

The point I was tring to make was using the pre ran new plug will give false reading when choping plugs and always use new. The lighter color of ring and thinness indacated lean. If done right you willhave a dark brown ring at around .080 and the rest is white. If one was to look at plug with out cutting theres not enoungh time to color and lead you to richen it up costing you power and chase your jetting. This plug after hard runs will always look lean untill it cut open. I will put time on this plug and post. Plus I use cheap plugs beacuse after jetting they don't foul I just cut open and replace. After 2 to 5 hr cut it open look over the last one in bag and get Idea on how motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is preforming. This and cranking pressure reading is a great way to keep on top of your Engine. also if your oil sealis leaking oil fouling it will only slightly change the smoke ring reading and keep you from leaning it out and cooking it.

I would apreacite any ones thoughts thu I like to learn and try new stuff. So "H" If you think a needle chagne and drop main will help I'll try it. and post up I will check chart for next size neddle and install for test. You will owe me a plug or two. Just kidding I have plenty to spare remember there cheap. Plus you never know. I will have to check mid rang emmisions for accurate test. I think I will fab up a o-2 set up to measure without going to dyno. What heat rang is plug 2 in your pic.

Hers another one for you the plug reading was at a plug gap of .036 and I run .042 in the DCP. Don't try this at home.

Thanks for you input. I alway sugget every one to read up on plugs it will unlock hidden HP. Shall we discuss wickin heat from piston crown and combustion chamber using a plug. I now it make my fan run. If you aint wickin heat your washing the cylinder and loosing HP. Just how does an A/C unit work?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Yeah pull the needle and see what you have, I ran the EEG the DGH was too lean..


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5247
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
And he's useing stock pipetoo...


hoser wrote:
adnoh wrote:
Ok comfirmed it's lean. I will same you the babble and tell you I upped the main to a 205 and dropped the neddle one clip osition.

FYI on motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Stock "A" bore hacker clean up and port work, with hacker head. 39mm carb, stock pipe.



39mm PWK ?

I ran a 162 main on my full mod Pilot with the 39mm PWK

What needle you running?

No way you should be that big on the main, something is wrong.. If you were turning 9000+ RPM I could see you running a main that big.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
Ok Turbo you do not sould like a believer or you shocked. I have developed a motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) using stock pipe that will out pull the DCP ( mine) as well as top speed it. My wife usally get what She ask for. When She locked up her crank blaming Drakman fastness, She said I need more power and speed. Just tring to keep her happy. Plus I get to have fun. See pics for proff or come on over and see for your self. I 'll break out barbacue and beer and do a little testing.


Attachments:
File comment: Ahhhh, new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) complete and tuned
Mrs Adnoh's motor, Stock pipe.jpg
Mrs Adnoh's motor, Stock pipe.jpg [ 129.21 KiB | Viewed 1172 times ]
File comment: New 39mm carb jetted ( I hope)
39mm carb.jpg
39mm carb.jpg [ 108.41 KiB | Viewed 1251 times ]
File comment: new hour meter for new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Used for logging purposes
Hour meter on new motor.jpg
Hour meter on new motor.jpg [ 97.51 KiB | Viewed 1251 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:55 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
Now that Turbo is satisified If not come on down for some fun. I will address what "H" brought up. I did pull apart and check It is an E E G. I could see why you were conserned. If it came with the DGH like yours did it in dead would need to be changed. The D G H is leaner all the way thu. D is one step leaner 1/4 thu 3/4 throttle position. G is one step leaner at 1/4 throttle and H is one step leaner 1/8 to 1/4 throttle position. For those reading the first letter: A is lean and E is rich, second= C is rich and G is lean E is in the middle, Third=A riches and Q leanest G is fourth from richest. If lost I bet "H" has a pic or post some ware that showes this for study. I'll take it from your advise that going down would be bad but maby going fatter. Try E C A. This may bog the off idol as well hurt mid . Thoughts?


Attachments:
File comment: parts from her carb
Carb slide (8) and EEG needle.jpg
Carb slide (8) and EEG needle.jpg [ 82.42 KiB | Viewed 1247 times ]
File comment: needle out of carb
EEG needle out of carb.jpg
EEG needle out of carb.jpg [ 85.34 KiB | Viewed 1247 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
Is there a way to edit post I called Turbo, Tubo. Sorry David I meant no disrepect. I will take My sand sandsandwich now.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:22 pm 
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Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Is there a way to edit post I called Turbo, Tubo. Sorry David I meant no disrepect. I will take My sand sandsandwich now.


Yeah you click on the EDIT button


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Ok Turbo you do not sould like a believer or you shocked. I have developed a motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) using stock pipe that will out pull the DCP ( mine) as well as top speed it. My wife usally get what She ask for. When She locked up her crank blaming Drakman fastness, She said I need more power and speed. Just tring to keep her happy. Plus I get to have fun. See pics for proff or come on over and see for your self. I 'll break out barbacue and beer and do a little testing.



What is DCP ?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:06 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: San Diego
Diminutive C$%k Paranoia?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 1037
Location: CT
If you are looking for an inexpensive o 2 metering device check out this one
http://www.14point7.com/JAW/JAW.htm

I've built a couple and they have been very accurate, fun project too.

Did you by chance monitor egt? I would be curious to see the difference in the egt between the 3 plugs for ha ha's.
You always run the same plug? Switching to an NGK for example, after you have done all those plug chops can lead to different results in the end.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: Wichita ks
I see it now that I opened my eyes. DCP stands for drakart chasingproject. A little back ground. I origanly set up pilot for chasing squad at LS. motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )),suspision ect. After meeting the tigers and LT pilots I opped to start dialing in the pilot for that purpose. Sure is fun to chase them around all day. It takes a dffeent set up for that versed quads. So I call it the DCP for short and all the info logged in laptop in in that file. Mrs Adnoh motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) work is logged under 3-08 motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and other stuff each has its own freekie file. I like to take note and can not rember all of it.

King Kx. I do use these same plugs I do not recomend any body use them because its not a popular choice. A more expensive (R) plug do have it advantages however all my data is based on these do they are predicatable and esay to read and make changes. The plug chop session is a fall and spring set up for this new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and a summer will have the same chop section and jettting adjustments then logged. I just check air tep hum ect. and make do a pre ride set up for each bike the night before ride. This helps me cut down on field changes and allows for more ride time. I will look over your set up for air/fuel ratio guage. What I do is when I think I have it It hit the dyno on a dya with about same reading so I can fine tune and alter base line to reflect these #'s. I'am not a real big fan of egt #.s for jetting I pefer doing the way I now works for me. I will listen and take note and try if you supply info on what to look for. If I can hack up a guage I will retest plug using logged data and post results for viewing.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
I see it now that I opened my eyes. DCP stands for drakart chasingproject. A little back ground. I origanly set up pilot for chasing squad at LS. motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )),suspision ect. After meeting the tigers and LT pilots I opped to start dialing in the pilot for that purpose. Sure is fun to chase them around all day. It takes a dffeent set up for that versed quads. So I call it the DCP for short and all the info logged in laptop in in that file. Mrs Adnoh motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) work is logged under 3-08 motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and other stuff each has its own freekie file. I like to take note and can not rember all of it.

King Kx. I do use these same plugs I do not recomend any body use them because its not a popular choice. A more expensive (R) plug do have it advantages however all my data is based on these do they are predicatable and esay to read and make changes. The plug chop session is a fall and spring set up for this new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and a summer will have the same chop section and jettting adjustments then logged. I just check air tep hum ect. and make do a pre ride set up for each bike the night before ride. This helps me cut down on field changes and allows for more ride time. I will look over your set up for air/fuel ratio guage. What I do is when I think I have it It hit the dyno on a dya with about same reading so I can fine tune and alter base line to reflect these #'s. I'am not a real big fan of egt #.s for jetting I pefer doing the way I now works for me. I will listen and take note and try if you supply info on what to look for. If I can hack up a guage I will retest plug using logged data and post results for viewing.


I ran the Champion plugs in my snowmobiles and my 3 wheeler for years, nothing wrong with them, others don't like them because they are not as resistant to fouling as a NGK how ever if you look at the guys that bitch about the Champion plugs they are usually the guy that has goop dripping from his pipe, their jetting is way on the rich side.

I used a NGK BR8EV in my Pilot for 6 full seasons, only changed it out because the reach was getting worn to the point I could no longer file it back flat, was not thinking at the time I could have just modified it like this one and continued to use it http://www.pilotodyssey.com/plugmod.htm DOH! :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:06 pm
Posts: 1412
Location: San Diego
Pictures don't show up in link


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