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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Thought I would share a couple of pics to back up the babble. I do more later,Gota take wife out for some fun. These pics are at full bump and full extended before bind. I think its 14.5 inches but call it 14 to be safe.


Attachments:
full extended.jpg
full extended.jpg [ 107.03 KiB | Viewed 786 times ]
full compressed.jpg
full compressed.jpg [ 104.46 KiB | Viewed 786 times ]
rear view of new set up.jpg
rear view of new set up.jpg [ 112.19 KiB | Viewed 786 times ]
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 Post subject: LT rear
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:06 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 191
Is this a new long travel kit?Are you going to sell these or is this just for your own buggy?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Nope don't sell nothing just share for do it your self if you want. Just a back yard hacker. What I do is hack up and fab test pieces and once I feel comfortable with them I send off for a professional to make new and weld up. My welding is fair at best nothing pretty. I think they call it a rod burner. You can use you stock rear arm and rework, buy axles from ATVR or 4x4 tuff stuff. I used ATVR here and are tring to get 4x4 to make inch longer for even better set up.The I rod and radius rods are from any race shop using chromly rod ends. I used steel at first for orignal set up and now use alum for this setup It changes the unsprung weight to offset the heiver arms so shock valving does not change if non adjustable shocks are used. By moving the hub out it will effect the wheel rate due to shock angle change but very minor. It will also change the CG, trackwidth, body roll and roll stiffness which is a plus for the extend front track width. This is best sooted for the dunes and wide tracks. I tested chasing quads to get the cornoring dialed in verses stock pilot set up. Due to the track width it does require a slightly different line but can hang with them just as good as stock. I went off the resevation using a trx set up with disc. which required a whloe diff set up to make it turn however it does work as long as you have fully adjustable shocks. I have no idea if this will work with an ATVR, or others long tavle front set up. I have no geomety data for them.

I have some more pics to share and will start on a shock set up for the 14" of travle. Fist call is to shock guy for shaft change and then will have to put shock thu fender or lay it over which I really did not want to do. I like the stock look of the big shock bolted under fender. If 4x4 can make axle 1" longer I should be able to lenghten shock shaft 1.5 inches and change Lever ratiio to keep it under fender and get 13.75 of travle. It's a lot of money for 1.75" of travle more than I have. One thing I also did was to keep the scrub radius at zero for testing to keep the twisting force off the uppper arm and the stress off the pivots. It's like to far of offset in the front the twisting force on the arms is what tries to yang the wheel out of your hands. One should be able to take it to 1.5 inches once a pro makes the arms.

The fist set of pics are dealing with camber and negitive camber gain. The reason for negitive camber gain is to keep the tire flat during body role. The tire will loose surface area during role reducing traction via laterial loading. This arm setup will allow for adjustment. This unequal lenghts of the I rods and the upper ams can changes via I Rod and allow for adjustments at different ride hieghts and differnt rolll angles with binding the ball joint.


Attachments:
Zero camber at extended.jpg
Zero camber at extended.jpg [ 106.45 KiB | Viewed 747 times ]
Negitive camber gain 50% compressed.jpg
Negitive camber gain 50% compressed.jpg [ 92.21 KiB | Viewed 747 times ]
More negitive camber gain at full compressed 14.5 inch vertical wheel travle.jpg
More negitive camber gain at full compressed 14.5 inch vertical wheel travle.jpg [ 86.45 KiB | Viewed 747 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Now for some caster. The # not known, levle was off and did not get tape on it. I just wanted to make sure it raked at the camber setting I used. Not enough time to get number yesterday. I wanted the rear to rake like the trx fornt did hopfuly taking some kick out of it aka bobble head. It may be just a product of the wheel base. The kick it relitive to the verticle height of the bump and the wheel base. This should allow for the rear to roll back on input with vertical loading the low speed maintaing body role control.

NOTE: shocks must have hiems at both ends to prevent bind and snapping shafts.


Attachments:
Rake at full compressed.jpg
Rake at full compressed.jpg [ 104.66 KiB | Viewed 744 times ]
Rake at  full extended.jpg
Rake at full extended.jpg [ 113.6 KiB | Viewed 450 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Here is the I rods and Rdius rod change in comparison. I will also post up old pic of orignal set up using steel swedge tubes 5/8", 7/8" OD with the 5/8"(Threads) X 1/2"( ID with shim stock to metric)rod ends. Once I get it where I want it the rods will be replaced with chromoly type. the rods,ends,spacers ect will run you around $250.00 a set depending on where and what you buy. I would not recomend using econo type rod ends. Spend the extra for chromoly it's only a few bucks more and worth it. I bought my stuff thu smiley,s in Wichita and there also located in Texas and Oklahamo. The al tubes are T-6061-T6, 5/8" 1"OD

The reason for this was to move the rear hub back and out. When I had my shocks built I had to many red and white and orderd the shock to long and required a shock relocate bracket to fit and cler the ATVR arms which now is gone. This also allowed the axle to run future out in the Cv hub before clearance issue arrised alowing more extended lenght for added travle. This also changed the weight bias and lenght of the wheel base adding stability( I hope). It allowed for the change in the upper arm and the bind rate of the ball joint and angle of upright of the arm allowing the arm to be more to 90 ( exact degree secerte for now) degree with the pivot points reducing bind and gaining travle.The magic number for Radius rod and rear I rod is the same.


Attachments:
Longer I rod.jpg
Longer I rod.jpg [ 107.92 KiB | Viewed 742 times ]
Longer Radius Rod.jpg
Longer Radius Rod.jpg [ 102.88 KiB | Viewed 742 times ]
I rod steel with chromoly rod ends.jpg
I rod steel with chromoly rod ends.jpg [ 72.38 KiB | Viewed 742 times ]
parts for new radius arm, longer bolt, shim,heim and mis align spacers.jpg
parts for new radius arm, longer bolt, shim,heim and mis align spacers.jpg [ 59.66 KiB | Viewed 742 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Heres is some track width numbers. I used a 9x9 3" back spacing rims( sand tire) for numbers. The dirt tires use a 4" back spacing.


Attachments:
9 by 9 , 3 inch back spacing.jpg
9 by 9 , 3 inch back spacing.jpg [ 95.85 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
10 by 9, 4 back spacing.jpg
10 by 9, 4 back spacing.jpg [ 95.79 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
63.5 wheel base .jpg
63.5 wheel base .jpg [ 101.71 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
66.5 wheel base.jpg
66.5 wheel base.jpg [ 97.39 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
68.5 inch wheel base.jpg
68.5 inch wheel base.jpg [ 99.01 KiB | Viewed 737 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Funny wide and some side view pics. Time to head to garage and get teo change numbers and put some tred on those shinny rims.


Attachments:
Wide, wide wide..jpg
Wide, wide wide..jpg [ 106.41 KiB | Viewed 735 times ]
Front angle view of new set up.jpg
Front angle view of new set up.jpg [ 126.57 KiB | Viewed 601 times ]
Rear angle view of new set up.jpg
Rear angle view of new set up.jpg [ 113.31 KiB | Viewed 734 times ]
rear view of new set up.jpg
rear view of new set up.jpg [ 112.19 KiB | Viewed 734 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Put some tread on the rims and got new cornor weight numbers. Also did some tire dia reading and weights for comparsion. The rework on the arms did change the front to rear bias numbers. The new tires have a smaller dia than the old ones which will reduce top speed but also put more surface ares on the ground. This was done by using a different size tube in the tire than what I ran before.


Attachments:
New tires and mounting tools.jpg
New tires and mounting tools.jpg [ 86.26 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]
Resize of Nerw tires for new rear arms 003.jpg
Resize of Nerw tires for new rear arms 003.jpg [ 68.97 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]
File comment: One was the new and one was the old same tire same pressure, different size of tubes
New mounted tires on new rims.jpg
New mounted tires on new rims.jpg [ 108.13 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]
72 inch dia at 6 lb's new tires and rims .jpg
72 inch dia at 6 lb's new tires and rims .jpg [ 94.06 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]
File comment: this tire was also at 6 lbs
76.125 inch dia old rims and tires.jpg
76.125 inch dia old rims and tires.jpg [ 70.09 KiB | Viewed 714 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
some more. Stock rear tire with AL rim and some wheel and tire weights.


Attachments:
77.375 inches dirt stock tires on AL.jpg
77.375 inches dirt stock tires on AL.jpg [ 107.02 KiB | Viewed 712 times ]
20 lbs  sand tire on AL.jpg
20 lbs sand tire on AL.jpg [ 85.05 KiB | Viewed 712 times ]
26 lbs stock dirt on AL.jpg
26 lbs stock dirt on AL.jpg [ 77.5 KiB | Viewed 712 times ]
119 lbs front cornor weight with out rider.jpg
119 lbs front cornor weight with out rider.jpg [ 89.52 KiB | Viewed 712 times ]
170 lbs front cornor weight with rider.jpg
170 lbs front cornor weight with rider.jpg [ 94.3 KiB | Viewed 712 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
more cornor weights. Old set up 880 lbs, new set up 876 lbs. One other thing to mention when installing new tires you should check dia of each at a given pressure to see if dia s the same if not you should log the stager so you don't air up the same if different and end up out of control when the front get light. You may be surprised what you find


Attachments:
217 lbs Rear cornor weight with sand tire no rider.jpg
217 lbs Rear cornor weight with sand tire no rider.jpg [ 87.29 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
268 lbs rear cornor weight with rider.jpg
268 lbs rear cornor weight with rider.jpg [ 91.08 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
File comment: old set up cornor weight
Front weight with rider, 180 LB.jpg
Front weight with rider, 180 LB.jpg [ 71.28 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
File comment: old set up cornor weight
Rear weight with rider 260 LB.jpg
Rear weight with rider 260 LB.jpg [ 55.93 KiB | Viewed 711 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:08 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:28 am
Posts: 708
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Did I read correctly, that you put a tube in a tubeless tyre?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Yep, Two reasons. #1 The prowedge was not designed to run on this heavy of a machine and when slamming it into a cornor real hard ( I tend to slam it in pretty hard at times and crappy bead on aftermarket rims) it will break bead loose or pop bead if pressure is to low. #2 By changing the size of tube you can change the dia and contact patch areas. I have ran this tire on my quads, odyssey and now pilots this way for a very long time with no ill effects. When chasing the drakes a larger tube is required to get the dia up for top end with ut running high pressures. The smaller tube widen the contact patch and reduces the dia for quads and other pilots which also proveds more bite. My machine is a stock bore machine so I need all the help I can get to run with the big bores. We, Wife and I like thes because they provide good traction without a heavy throttle and allow us to get very close to each other without a face full of sand. Plus less rotating mass on the drive train. These were desinged for honda as a sand tire to be easy on terrain and ride on top of the sand.

In the day you could find these in the Honda line catalog and were recomended for the sand the only thing you must mount backward to get the full effect. On the quads We ran the 22x 11x8 prowedge 2 and theyhad a 24 11 x 10 which is no longer avalible. The subastuted the 22 10 x 9 501 in its place. One other thing about this tire in grow in dia at speed by rotating speed. The contact patch lessens as it inlarges in dia haulen on top. You can even here the pitch change as speed increases. They say it can grow up to 20% in dia at speed. I noticed on the quad it grows larger due to higher max speed then pilot. If you look close at some race banshees you will see on them for just that reason. There are some others close now avalible under different names but based on this design. Every time I order a set I have to tell the parts guy what book to find them in. I ran thes on my 85 and 86 atc 250r,85 350x and 88 trx 250r as well odyssey and pilot. I have not yet ran them on 450r but we when needed. When used on the atc and trx you can change the counter and rear sproket and hang on top with the pipped and built banshee as long as there not stroked and geared. It catches them off guard when they see you come up beside them in sixth and still pulling.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
adnoh wrote:
Thought I would share a couple of pics to back up the babble. I do more later,Gota take wife out for some fun. These pics are at full bump and full extended before bind. I think its 14.5 inches but call it 14 to be safe.

Alright finally got to a computer(mines broken) I started on mine last weekend. I now understand what your saying about the upper ball joint bind. I'm only getting 12.5" of travel that's bind to bind. But that's ok since my shocks are fox air 12" stroke shocks. It would be nice to run more travel but then I'll have to get longer shocks. I havent got my axles yet. Are the Lt axles 2" longer? Or 2.5"? I don't have any pics but its turning out exactly how I wanted it to. Well it looks like any other LT with the rear hoops and all. Thanks again for all the info


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Shoubadaba. I take it you going to run a 1 to 1 on the LR. Cant wait to see pics. I do believe there 2" will check when back to garage. The upper atvr with the longer axle still wont use it all. You can move it out another 1 than the arm will allow without going with crazy camber. I thought by changint the arm I could delete the relocate brackets and go with stock location and I was right. By moving it out and back with the new angle and lenght on the arm the shock bolts right up (Hiems required both ends fo shock). Now I'am happy with the look no brackets for shocks. I also change the tender to change the ride height to go along with the front change. I did a little testing tonight and so far very pleased with the change. It handles much better and likes air. I will need to dial in front but rear is spot on. One thing about the shock being put back to stock locations( moving shock inbound) it change the wheel rate to a softer rate. On a hard hits and aggressive track I may need to go with heavier main spring for aggressive driving thu the rough. I have been looking at progressive rate springs. There not as expesive as I thought.

Heres some pics of the rework shock back to stock location with the new reworked arms.


Attachments:
Upper shock relocate backet gone back to stock location.jpg
Upper shock relocate backet gone back to stock location.jpg [ 96.97 KiB | Viewed 648 times ]
Lower relocate bracket gone back to stock location.jpg
Lower relocate bracket gone back to stock location.jpg [ 114.4 KiB | Viewed 648 times ]
Side view of new shock and arm with shock back to stock locations hub moved back and out.jpg
Side view of new shock and arm with shock back to stock locations hub moved back and out.jpg [ 117.36 KiB | Viewed 602 times ]
rear view with reworked and stock shock locations with new tenders.jpg
rear view with reworked and stock shock locations with new tenders.jpg [ 100.02 KiB | Viewed 648 times ]
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