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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Her is an idea for the caster adjustment without adding hiems and bungs. This is how we dialed or trx 250's. Nobody noticed the change and those who did we told it shimed the bent arms back into alignment. I sketched up for you to look over and measure yours up to see if it will work. Best I could do from memory. This can be used for a various arms with diff tire and wheel combo's. I will start on new bump kit tommorow for you based off of pics. I will need info for more accurate kit. I let you know what I need. get your hacker bench together and tape measure out. I did forget to the vise for bench sorry.

I will do the math tommorw as well when I find my protractor and graph them out using pilot hubs. I will know how much change can be expectied. If not enough I will change numbers and shim thickness to compasate.


Attachments:
PPE caster fix 1.jpg
PPE caster fix 1.jpg [ 76.25 KiB | Viewed 354 times ]
PPE caster fix 2.jpg
PPE caster fix 2.jpg [ 76.76 KiB | Viewed 679 times ]
PPE caster fix 3.jpg
PPE caster fix 3.jpg [ 86.1 KiB | Viewed 679 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
oops!!!! remove 1/16" fromm each side of the upper pivot on arm not 1/8". Check the math over closely. I hope someone will run the #'s for varifaction, please. To many red and whites.


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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22102
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Her is an idea for the caster adjustment without adding hiems and bungs. This is how we dialed or trx 250's. Nobody noticed the change and those who did we told it shimed the bent arms back into alignment. I sketched up for you to look over and measure yours up to see if it will work. Best I could do from memory. This can be used for a various arms with diff tire and wheel combo's. I will start on new bump kit tommorow for you based off of pics. I will need info for more accurate kit. I let you know what I need. get your hacker bench together and tape measure out. I did forget to the vise for bench sorry.

I will do the math tommorw as well when I find my protractor and graph them out using pilot hubs. I will know how much change can be expectied. If not enough I will change numbers and shim thickness to compasate.


Caster is auto adjusting on my 400EX, it has the same Micky mouse clips the Pilot has and a few of them are knocked out of their grooves, by tapping the front brakes you can watch the camber change :-) Gotta install the bushings kit some day, its low on my to do list lol.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 11:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Wonder if that is where the houser trick tact arm came to be. I looked into using them on the piolt but would have to change the angle of the upper arm for them to work. Shouby (for short untill i get handle on his spelling)can use them on his set up since he used hte stock 450r confiquration for the odyssey. It changes the caster on accell and decell. What do you think about using the drawing to help Turbo. It should give him 4 deg of adjustment. to dial in. I'am starting on a drawing of the bump kit for him got any idea's, anybody, besides the get ride of the hiem slide. The heim slid is gone. Turbo what do you think,look feasable.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 11:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
Wonder if that is where the houser trick tact arm came to be. I looked into using them on the piolt but would have to change the angle of the upper arm for them to work. Shouby (for short untill i get handle on his spelling)can use them on his set up since he used hte stock 450r confiquration for the odyssey. It changes the caster on accell and decell. What do you think about using the drawing to help Turbo. It should give him 4 deg of adjustment. to dial in. I'am starting on a drawing of the bump kit for him got any idea's, anybody, besides the get ride of the hiem slide. The heim slid is gone. Turbo what do you think,look feasable.


Do you think he needs to adjust the caster?

Others that have this kit brag about hoe great it is, its suppose to be the same on both the Pilot and 350 the 350 just adds a frame to copy the Pilots mounting points why is turbo the only one that needs caster adjustments?

Looks to me that your idea will work but wouldn't it be easier to just add hiems to the arm? I realize the cost would be much greater but if he bent something in the future he could use the hiems to adjust it out.


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
Yes. I been logging pics of the build and feel once the bump is fixed it will need to be adjusted to a netural steer and then dial in. The toe out on bumpis ok but not that much it takes it to an unsersteer on exit. The caster asjustment will dial in the camber when turning with out making a spring rate change in the rear. Instead of dialing in more negitive static amber you can dial in some caster. Since he tried stiffing up the front and it handled poorly in the woops a stiffer rate inrear may need to be in order to get some laterl wieght on rear and off the front. It's the turning where he is in trouble. The toe out in bump is good for straight line stability thu woops. Once the bump kit installed and the proper tie rod location are close he can dial it in to control the toe out in bump. When he shortened up the tie rod he made it worse. Alos the agressive toe out when whells turns in bump is alowing it to overrotate and lock. When you take some of toe out on bump out you can dial in negitive camber with positive caster. the more caster when turned will add negitive camber. Any way that's my thoughts on the caster or possible caster change needed. Also the uneven arms are very aggresive for negtive camber and the hub may even need to be rolled forward depending on set up. I also feel theres no anti dive built in like the pilot so a caster may be in order to combate the added compression on bump. This is why it may even need some positive caster taken out. Plus with to much caster it will require more input from steering to control. This is why I need him to test what I posted. When it rolles into cornor the the weight transfer side to side and rear to front toeing out to fare for the camber setting letting it over rotate and lock. I really do not like the bump stops hitting ball joint. The new bump kit will difently need a stop

Thoughts.


Attachments:
File comment: Too much toe out on bump. reduce and dial in caster for slip angle
Turbo bump 32.jpg
Turbo bump 32.jpg [ 55.56 KiB | Viewed 632 times ]
File comment: the angle from upper to lower pivot. and the upper in not angled up. no anti dive built in to arms.
Turbo bump 10.jpg
Turbo bump 10.jpg [ 50.67 KiB | Viewed 632 times ]
File comment: bump stops hitting balljoint.
Turbo bump 11.jpg
Turbo bump 11.jpg [ 60.99 KiB | Viewed 632 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
Did Turbo even take you up on these calculations Adnoh by chance? I cannot see if he indeed cut the pivots and shims on the upper arms. The current setting on the PPE the passenger side tire is out slightly, it does appear to be aligned correctly. Steering it poor when pushing it, no load on frame at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
Did Turbo even take you up on these calculations Adnoh by chance? I cannot see if he indeed cut the pivots and shims on the upper arms. The current setting on the PPE the passenger side tire is out slightly, it does appear to be aligned correctly. Steering it poor when pushing it, no load on frame at all.


You really cant judge any steering by just pushing it...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
hoser wrote:
Mudbogger wrote:
Did Turbo even take you up on these calculations Adnoh by chance? I cannot see if he indeed cut the pivots and shims on the upper arms. The current setting on the PPE the passenger side tire is out slightly, it does appear to be aligned correctly. Steering it poor when pushing it, no load on frame at all.


You really cant judge any steering by just pushing it...


Oh I know I was just mentioning it, I understand it need a load in it for a base line. And I use the term "load" loosely!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2838
Location: Wichita ks
Mudd, no he did not. I will check some old files and see what I have if any thing. We did this on or 250s due to the crappy camber gain which Honda fixed on the 04/05 trx and changed in 06 on. The camber change effect caster caster during turning under compression. If running a r set up a static camber change at ride height at set compression will help. As the the suspenion is compressed the further the camber changes the worse the caster and the worse it turnes which leads on to use a big camber static setting with the R spindles and arms and there mounting positions. By moving the static caster forward it will help offset the change and provide better turing unerd load or loss of traction force on the tire.You do not need much or itwill fill twitchy at speed. More caster for high speed wide turnes and less for tighter low speed. I know there stock spindles and not R's however the same effect will take place. By having two to three degree to play with will help dial it in at you static ride height and shocks compression settings. If the front shock are to soft and it gains a lot of camber then dial in less camber and or less caster. Since you have fixed ball joint you will have to do a full round on top and then re adjust you toe. With every camber/caster change it will change the toe and bumpsteer. This is another reason I made my bump kit adjustabe to move the bump pivot forward and back based on the change in tie rod lenght. You may even have to swith from toe out to toe in. Toe out will make the caster increse at wheel lock and decrease at Toe in if camber is static. The further the wheel is turned the more caster it will have at lock. Remember this is due to camber change, the futher the spindle leanes over the futher is rools back. This is also where the bump steer goes into play. You may have zero bump in a straight line however turn the wheel and cycle and go Ummmm. Then compare to stock and really go Ummm. Then go from compression to droop and see what happens when you unload the traction force from the front and see the change. And that is the key to dialing in the trx set up on a pilot. Just unhook the shock and move it though its stroke with the wheel straight and then at wheel lock right and left and whatch the change. Then you need to set the static setting in the middle of the change for the ride height. Then one can simply adjust low speed compression depending on speed and conditions to keep with the the effective range durning corning to offset traction force.

After L.S. I will shoot some video of this to post and what effects what and how to dial in. Just keep in mind the video will be a 05 trx spindle with a bump kit. The principle is the same however for other set up.

Hope this helps more than it hurts. If it hurts stop and have a few cold ones. for some reason it make things clearer or you just don't care any mre one of the two.


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