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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
Full view of grease seal.JPG
Full view of grease seal.JPG [ 159.95 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Getting crown edge to top of cylinder measurement.JPG
Getting crown edge to top of cylinder measurement.JPG [ 124.55 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Crown edge to top of cylinder,  Test #1.JPG
Crown edge to top of cylinder, Test #1.JPG [ 119.51 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
100 cc fluid for test #1.JPG
100 cc fluid for test #1.JPG [ 68.55 KiB | Viewed 556 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:15 pm 
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Test #1 yeided bad result due to the hole in the flat bar ( TDC (Top Dead Center) bar) did not quite set the piston flush and the plate had a littel warp to it and leaked . Thought I would get a more accurate #. The piston had to be moved from 4.67 to 4.93 mm.


Attachments:
Test #1 16.5 cc's.JPG [62.47 KiB]
Downloaded 91 times
Test #1 cc's 16.5.JPG
Test #1 cc's 16.5.JPG [ 118 KiB | Viewed 497 times ]
Test #1 cc's 16.5.JPG
Test #1 cc's 16.5.JPG [ 118 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Test #2 15.5 cc's.JPG [57.33 KiB]
Downloaded 91 times
Test #2  cc's 15.5.JPG
Test #2 cc's 15.5.JPG [ 120.34 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Well test #3 went much better and fell good with this one. I willuse this number for spreedsheet.


Attachments:
Test #3 16 cc's.JPG
Test #3 16 cc's.JPG [ 53.8 KiB | Viewed 552 times ]
Test #3 cc's 16.JPG
Test #3 cc's 16.JPG [ 137.72 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:14 pm 
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Here is a work book for others to use or review and play with. It allows to do do quick CR changes and calculations for top end work. Just change some entrys and see how th CR is effected. The idea was to make it eaiser with out a lot of calculations. This is based on stock parts ( OEM) however a simple change can be made or added to use other items. If your base gasket is diff than a correction factor can be added. It does allow for head gasket change. It alos allows for over bore and ex port change. This does not have any degree info just for correcteed CR. As one does there top end one can get numbers to see how there stacks up to stock and the effect. You can change the data on the different sheets of the work book and compare the results and log the data.

It's an excell format.

Have fun playing. If you find a problem please let me know.


Attachments:
Resize of Easy CR corection work sheet 1.JPG [71 KiB]
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Resize of Easy CR corection work sheet 2.JPG [72.77 KiB]
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:34 pm 
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excell file did not load try again. Had to zip it, sorry.


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File comment: Here we go
pilot Easy Cr stock base gaskets oem piston.zip [21.93 KiB]
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Updates?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Yep, Been working on the P L A N and are preparing a post. Shouold be ready for the weekend if work load allows.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:25 pm 
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I have been working on the plan for the rebuild and thought I would share some Blow down info and pic's. There is a lot of discussion about the exhaust port and altering it so I though I would include some info that pertains to altering the exhaust port and if one should raise it or not. I will stick to the height for now and touch Low Blow Width and Blow Down Time Area.

SO what is blow down. We all have read it in a post or two so for those who are not sure just what it is, the term is defined as: Measured in degrees of crankshaft rotation from Exhaust Port opening to the Transfer Ports opening.It one step in the port timing process. I have taken a sleeve that was made for the pilot and drawn it up on paper so you can see how it related to the numbers. The drawing will show all the port window ( openings). For those with a touch more knowledge in the port windows it will plainly show that this sleeve needs some work. SO what I have done for discussion purposes is taken the drawing and used actual data from the .25 over cylinder used for the cc test and transfed the numbers. I used just plain number from top of cylinder and changed them into degrees and used a correction factor based on the negative deck height. If you do not correct the numbers using the top of cylinder based on rod ratios the data will be flawed by .0961 degrees. I will later install this cylinder and degree for accuracy.

Where this may be useful to some one is when they are having a problem with the Engine after some one has played with it and altered the static setting and the Engine and becomes non responsive in one way or another based on bolt up parts porting or head work. one can get the basic numbers and see what if any thing can be done.

A prime example of this would be when some one oops ed a head (been there and done that). The Cr is out of whack because of milling and or cambering or both. This brings on the onset of detonation and if your running a cast ( oem Piston). it can get bad quick. The cast piston has a thinner skirt thickness and is subject to fracturing quicker than a forged piston there is other issues there but you get the idea this discussion is about Blow Down degrees.

First let's look at some pics and get a handle on what it is.

The first pic is of the sleeve and the port windows.

You will see the window and a description of the port openings ( windows). The big one in the middle is the exhaust port. The two on each side are the transfers. The one nearest the exhaust port are referred to as the main front transfer and the one closet to the intake is referred to as the main rear transfer port. The ones on the outer edges of the paper are the intake side boost port as you were looking through the intake where the reeds bolt up.

As mentioned above a quick look and you will notice that the center boost port is too short. They may have done this so it can be angle as necessary The roof angle is key to the timing. This should line up with the top of the transfers. I will show a pics later of this. The other is the height of the exhaust port to the top of the cylinder( top of the paper) It's just to high to start with. This sleeve would be a good candidate for a messed up head and a rev pipe and a high stall clutch as well as high rpm power, forged piston race only.


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Port lay out of sleeve.JPG [46.41 KiB]
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:39 pm 
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This pic will show the location of the piston at the point were the transfers start to open showing how much of the exhaust port is open. Notice in the pic the width of the exhaust window at time of transfer port opening. So what I did was pretty simple. Take and measure from the top of the cylinder down to were the top of the exhaust port opening and write down this number. Then measure down from the top of the cylinder to the top of the transfer port openings are and write this down as well. If you have not take the time to measure each transfer window to make sure there are all the same. If not they may need to be matched as that is part of the blue printing a cylinder. If they do not match there out of balance and will effect the way the cylinder is cleared of spent gases and the amount of new charge which effect combustion and power. Be careful as not mess with the roof angle that will do more damage than good.


Attachments:
Piston at transfer opening for Blown down #.JPG
Piston at transfer opening for Blown down #.JPG [ 118.12 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:51 pm 
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Now that we have the numbers I can input them and get degrees. What I also did was factor in the .18 mm of deck ( already had data) and subtracted this from each number taken at top of cylinder.

Here is some pics showing the piston at BDC ( Bottom Dead Center and the Port floors matching up. Now look again at the drawing and you see what I mean about the sleve. A note to you 350 guys look your over and go UM. Then start measuring your blow down. And you may see how this is relevant even to a 350 and possible changes.


Attachments:
Piston at BDC exhaust.JPG
Piston at BDC exhaust.JPG [ 126.43 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Piston at BDC right side main and rear transfers.JPG
Piston at BDC right side main and rear transfers.JPG [ 152.41 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Piston at BDC left side mani and rear transfers.JPG
Piston at BDC left side mani and rear transfers.JPG [ 132.45 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Pisotn at BDC  intake side.JPG
Pisotn at BDC intake side.JPG [ 129.95 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:13 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
That piston is hammered dog S_ _ _ . But it works for the discussion. and base line number to use for a plan.

Now I will post up a pic of the port window lay out showing the relaiton of the ports and some numbers with the degrees and the blow down for this cylinder.

What I did was draw across the windows where I took the measurments from and the lines show a relation to the windows. Now look at the sleve ex port window and were the line goes through it and where the widest part of the oval is at and also note the amount of area above the transfer opening.

What I ended up with IF I did the math right was 27.1605 of blow down. SO what does this tell us and How can I use this imformation.

I will discuss this later as it's time for some sleep had a rough day at work. Rememebr as always this is just Back Yard Hacker stuff and not to be used other than for discussion. Please let me know if I oops some where. Thanks.


Attachments:
cylinder #1 .25 over port window layout and blown down degrees 27.1605.JPG
cylinder #1 .25 over port window layout and blown down degrees 27.1605.JPG [ 58.29 KiB | Viewed 559 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
For those who like pics better than the math stuff. Here is some pics of the bottom end tear down.

Since the piston came apart ( gernaded) I was being carful taking it apart as not to move the crank any more than I had to as not to damage the botton end any more than is already done. So what I did was pull the Engine and remove the drive side case first and clean out the big chunks before tearing down the alternator side. This way as I remove the big nut under I do not intervertanly dig the parts into the bottom of the case if it spins on me.

I would never recomend just washing it out and installing new piston due to the amount of debris that ran through the Engine case. You just never get it all out and I have pic to show that. Plus this way I can inspect all the parts. It needs a boat load of new stuff. Ouch goes the wallet.

Bla bla bla, I will let the pics do the talking and I'll shut up.


Attachments:
Bottom end tear down , Found the rest of the piston.JPG
Bottom end tear down , Found the rest of the piston.JPG [ 134.01 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
chunkes in the bottom.JPG
chunkes in the bottom.JPG [ 91.2 KiB | Viewed 542 times ]
better view of the chunks.JPG
better view of the chunks.JPG [ 84.82 KiB | Viewed 542 times ]
Piece stuck to the rod.JPG
Piece stuck to the rod.JPG [ 100.09 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Remove drive side to clear out debris before tear down .JPG
Remove drive side to clear out debris before tear down .JPG [ 122.7 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
more pics.


Attachments:
debris that can not just be washed out with going thrugh the bearing or damaging the deal and willlead to later failure.JPG
debris that can not just be washed out with going thrugh the bearing or damaging the deal and willlead to later failure.JPG [ 155.06 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Right hand side after ready for crank removal.JPG
Right hand side after ready for crank removal.JPG [ 117.06 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
alternator side case.JPG
alternator side case.JPG [ 90.06 KiB | Viewed 541 times ]
crank removed and still parts stuck to crank bottom.JPG
crank removed and still parts stuck to crank bottom.JPG [ 88.83 KiB | Viewed 541 times ]
Piece wedged into case in oiling slot between bearing and case.JPG
Piece wedged into case in oiling slot between bearing and case.JPG [ 133.58 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:26 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
more pics. sorry for all the misspelled words kinda tired.


Attachments:
Found the rest of the piston. This is from teh bottom of the case.JPG
Found the rest of the piston. This is from teh bottom of the case.JPG [ 81.1 KiB | Viewed 537 times ]
Any guess as what these are from.JPG
Any guess as what these are from.JPG [ 60.7 KiB | Viewed 537 times ]
more debris on crank.JPG
more debris on crank.JPG [ 111.79 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:30 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Hope you enjoyed the pics. Back to the blow down degrees. In the drawing it showed that the degrees is 27 degrees. Keep in mind that that is for a slightly modified cylinder. So let talk about the stock pilot and the part on it. First the clutch. The engagement speed is lower than a higher stalled power block, The pipe and silencer is designed around the stock port timing, stock CR is 6.2 to 1 with a relative low cranking pressure. The rev limiter is set around 7600 rpm and in stock form rarely sees that number. SO the the 27 degrees will give it a fairly well pull off the bottom and through the mid range and provide a smooth power band.

Well we ( get enough junkies) had to start messing with the Engine and changing the parameters to which it operated. One of the first thing we did was raise the compression to give it more bottom end punch. Most machined down the head and some cut and reshaped the head. This helped but we wanted more so we started finding a pipe to bolt up and then added air intake mods and reeds etc. We soon found out we were at a limit of speed. granted we rode wheelies and threw more sand. However were we really getting more power at high rpm. We could adjust the power block to turn higher rpm but at what cost. This is where the blown down plays a part in the equation.

There has been some talk about raising the exhaust port to get a few more rpm's out of it. When you raise the port you change the blow down in degrees and a few other things as well. SO how much is too much. No easy answer there. But some key factors is the transfer port height and size. As you raise the exhaust port you run the risk of short cycling the cylinder at low rpm. Remember stock clutch engagement speed. If a higher stall clutch was installed and the minimum rpm was upped than not real big deal as long as the blown down was kept in check. The greater number in degrees will however allow better power at a higher rpm. Remember we also have bumped the CR to help the bottom end hit. The hit is a by product of the short cycling. SO whats the answer. If you have raised it to high ( the exhaust port) than you can and should change the transfer open degrees to lower the blown down number back in check. The rise in rpm will effect the port time area. The time the port are open at the higher rpm will benefit from the increase in area of the transfer port, as the rpm rises the time the ports are open decrease and the cylinder charge suffers. The effective stroke is also effected when you raise the exhaust port which effect CR. So if you raise the exhaust port to help correct the CR to an acceptable level you still run a risk of loosing combustion strength at high rpm due the greater blow down and a transfer port opening will be to short and a change will need to be done as well to get it back to an acceptable level. Since most like to run a rev delete and a rev pipe this type of port alterations is one I fell will help provide the power at the higher rpm or the revs you here are just that Engine making noise not power. Let factor in the clutch to this. If the Engine is turning 8000 rpm with 9 disc ( power block)but down on power is the clutch shifting out and at what rate. What if the lower 7600 rpm with 12 disc putting power to the clutch and pushing it to the max. Which bike is faster not to mention which one gets there quicker. I hope you kinda see how this related.

To summarize: higher rpm power need increased blow down and more transfer area but low end power suffers. Lower rpm power need less blow down but high end power suffers. When altering the exhaust port see what has changed and what is effected. Also you need think about what this does to the crab sizeing and the constant used for sizing. I have found .67 is a good value for a torgue pipe and .7 for a rev pipe for most applications. More port area needs more volume from the intake at higher rpm.

Yes, I have ran many different settings with several combinations so it really depends on how you ride,where you gonna ride, under what load and what parts you got bolted up. I have ran as low as 25 and as high as 37 degrees and each has there strengths and weaknesses. This is why a P L A N is a must or send the whole Engine to some one that can do it for you. Me I just like to play and learn and why it does what it does.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:26 am 
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Just when I got you thinking OK raise the the transfers a little, it's not all that easy to do and get right. A little goes a long way. As noted and discussed the CR relation to Effective stroke head cc's and gaskets etc. The transfers also has an effect on CR. Um mm, You gonna ask how since the the transfer is below exhaust port opening. Well we now have changed the charge density at an higher rpm due to the transfer time area in relation to blow down degrees. There is a reason the CR is based off of sea level operation. A while back I showed that an cranking compression of 180 lbs can be achieved with different CR static number based upon the calculations of effective stroke. The two different heads were milled and one was cut. The static number showed cranking compression of 180 lbs at the same rpm. The diff was the charge density. Now does some of the bla bla bla make since. If any one id lost a little here. Remember some asking what is the spacer for. Now you see how it relates. It increases top end power out put. Take a stock cylinder add a spacer. What has changed. the port open time of the exhaust ad transfers has changed, the effective stoke has changed and the CR has changed, the deck clearance has changed.

Since it's harder to raise the transfer port and get it right. why not raise the cylinder and remove material from the bottom. Then the you have an increase it port time area for the transfers and can dial in your exhaust port. Then you can calculate you Static CR and work from there dialing inn your head. You Now have changed the power band for the higher rpm power. Granted the low end suffers a little but when running all out ask your self how often you drop below 5000 rpm. While I do I tend to watch the rpm gauge. If you seen the throttle bleep video you will see that it was rolling off idol and went to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for a second or there about. You will notice that it revved way past peak HP with no stall of hesitation and the acceleration rate was good. Hope you kinda get the idea. I had mentioned carb constant. This is because If you increase time area you need a different value than stock to size the carb because of the volume with out rising pressure and effecting charge density and fuel separation. Tie some reed velocity into this and you impact CR.

Just some rambling of the Back Yard Hacker and My thought process on increased performance. Does it work Don't know just my thoughts.

You can go to the 2- stroke-calc change the values your self and see kinda what I mean. I have been going over that work sheet cell by cell and kinda getting a handle on how it works and changing the cell references to work with real data collected. Save that for another discussion.

IF you think about power. I break it down to three parts. Force,Distance and Time, Ya another dreded triangle man there used for a lot of things.

Got hedache, gota watch some speed channel and relex. I will touch on the three later into the P L A N and there relationship.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Cant wait to see the final design decision.

You have any data thoughts ideas experience on the 350? Turbotexas wants me to wake his up whilst it is here, how big can I go on the exhaust width before affecting ring life?

Also I have redskinman's spare 350 cylinder here for a bore and hone, his cylinder had been sleeved and I don't think the ports were matched properly for example the rear boost port does not match the stock casting, I will start another thread and post pics later just wanted to start the ball rolling to see if you ever evaluated or modified the 350.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:58 am 
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Wow, leave town for a few days and chang-o-matic, kinda cool. Any way,"H" according to eric goor the max for a bridged is 95% and a oval ( pilot) is 70%. There is a couple of way to measure as you already know but worth noting. Way one is around the wall most accurate and the second is across. When you use across method a reduction is required as not to exceed the maximums. Also as you know changing it effect the mean time area. Once the max width is achieved than you most go up. Width only effects time area and raising effects duration. IF the rpm goes up most likely both will need to be done for an higher rpm operation. If not the power will drop off at peak rpm. I will see If i can do some plotting next week for the ody. My data is not very accurate for the ody because when I owned them the notes we to say not very accurate.


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exhaust port width.JPG
exhaust port width.JPG [ 92.68 KiB | Viewed 646 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:05 pm 
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adnoh wrote:
Wow, leave town for a few days and chang-o-matic, kinda cool. Any way,"H" according to eric goor the max for a bridged is 95% and a oval ( pilot) is 70%. There is a couple of way to measure as you already know but worth noting. Way one is around the wall most accurate and the second is across. When you use across method a reduction is required as not to exceed the maximums. Also as you know changing it effect the mean time area. Once the max width is achieved than you most go up. Width only effects time area and raising effects duration. IF the rpm goes up most likely both will need to be done for an higher rpm operation. If not the power will drop off at peak rpm. I will see If i can do some plotting next week for the ody. My data is not very accurate for the ody because when I owned them the notes we to say not very accurate.



What would be 95% on the 350?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7687

Want to pep up Turbos 350 cylinder before I install on his bottom end, mo power everywhere, maybe something to go well with his pipe.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:50 pm 
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I took this from your tech post and I can post it there if you like.


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File comment: PPE jug lay out
Turbo stock port layout.jpg [60.33 KiB]
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:00 pm 
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adnoh wrote:
I took this from your tech post and I can post it there if you like.


Thanks, updated the post here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7687&p=68383

Any advice suggestions on the shape I was just going to follow the radius of whats their, wider at the very top would probably give the best performance but I don't want to affect ring life.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Well got the final cost for DCP rebuild parts $993.25 for the whole thing. Dang it man. May be time to dream a little. Wonder what I could find for under a grand and spend some cash installing. Looks the DCP may be down for a while. Back to the quad for a while or just ride the wifes. The cases have some damage that will need to be fixed from the spinning bearings. Looks like brass inserts will need to be fitted or cut and over sized bearing installed. If this can not be done correctly then the rest of the build would be a wast of time. If the bottomend inst good and tight it just will not stay together for the clearence and rpm I run. It would be ok for a spare weekend motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) I guess. No worries, I will not sell the cases to somebody if I scrap. They will be used for set up of cylinders. Since the cases are disconiuned I will start looking for replacment Engine.

So board what's your thoughts on replacment. All thought welcome.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:09 pm 
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adnoh wrote:
Well got the final cost for DCP rebuild parts $993.25 for the whole thing. Dang it man. May be time to dream a little. Wonder what I could find for under a grand and spend some cash installing. Looks the DCP may be down for a while. Back to the quad for a while or just ride the wifes. The cases have some damage that will need to be fixed from the spinning bearings. Looks like brass inserts will need to be fitted or cut and over sized bearing installed. If this can not be done correctly then the rest of the build would be a wast of time. If the bottomend inst good and tight it just will not stay together for the clearence and rpm I run. It would be ok for a spare weekend motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) I guess. No worries, I will not sell the cases to somebody if I scrap. They will be used for set up of cylinders. Since the cases are disconiuned I will start looking for replacment Engine.

So board what's your thoughts on replacment. All thought welcome.


Send the cases to Speedchaser?

Find a complete sled and use a sled Engine?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:16 pm 
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I started looking for replacment engines today lots to choose from. Here is some pics of the bearings and cases. I called a bearing mfg to see if they could make me some over sized bearing and then clean up the cases for fitment. I was thinking of over sizing to 72.10 and 72.25 OD if they can do them. This way I have a spare sets for future Just a thought.


Attachments:
DCP mains.JPG [106.4 KiB]
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Mains side view.JPG [74.44 KiB]
Downloaded 103 times
Clutch side.JPG [120.21 KiB]
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Flywheel side.JPG [125.23 KiB]
Downloaded 103 times
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2825
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


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Tools for checking.JPG [106.52 KiB]
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case halfs, tools, bearings and note pad.JPG [120.41 KiB]
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2 to 3 calibrated check.JPG [74.71 KiB]
Downloaded 193 times
MIc OD of bearings .JPG [94.05 KiB]
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