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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
more pics.


Attachments:
Bore guage in left side case for ID check X.JPG [106.17 KiB]
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Bore guage set at 71.98mm, .05mm over.JPG [78.74 KiB]
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Notes.JPG [105.08 KiB]
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22128
Location: Chicago
Are the bearings still a press fit into the bearing pockets?

You think .0007 out of round is that big of a deal I think that loctite bearing retainer is good for several thousands gap fill?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:09 am 
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Posts: 186
I agree .0007" is not much for concentricity with aluminum. The bearing cage is so much stronger that when pressesd in there would be no cage distorsion. Bearing lock would be my choise also.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:40 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
"H", the bearing no longer are tight. They fall out on the clutch side and come out on the other side with light touch. As far as the put of round goes I wanted to find the max dia for the bearing guy and to see how far if any I neede to take the cases out if the beaing can be done. You and Odyknuck think locktight will do the trick. I just to have that much clearence with no preload on the bearings. I heve never used locktight with that much slop. I,m heading to the lake for a week so when I get back I shoot a video of the bearing in the case so you all can see. I will oder in new stock ones and see how they fit and measure up. Never hurts to have one or two. Thanks for the input.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22128
Location: Chicago
adnoh wrote:
"H", the bearing no longer are tight. They fall out on the clutch side and come out on the other side with light touch. As far as the put of round goes I wanted to find the max dia for the bearing guy and to see how far if any I neede to take the cases out if the beaing can be done. You and Odyknuck think locktight will do the trick. I just to have that much clearence with no preload on the bearings. I heve never used locktight with that much slop. I,m heading to the lake for a week so when I get back I shoot a video of the bearing in the case so you all can see. I will oder in new stock ones and see how they fit and measure up. Never hurts to have one or two. Thanks for the input.


I have used loctite 640 before without problems
http://www.henkelna.com/industrial/prod ... 00389%257C

641 is Recommended for maximum diametral clearance of 0.008".
http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/SI ... 0000000HZN


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:17 am
Posts: 186
I would us the locktight over trying to bore the cases for larger bearings in a heartbeat. Reboring the pockets and take the chance of not getting them aligned etc is not worth the gamble. Afterall with what you have your worce case senario would be .006" or so of being off center. I would however build the lower end all at the same time so the locktite will setup with the bearings being in the best posible position they can on the crank and in the cases..


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:16 pm 
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Posts: 22128
Location: Chicago
How much do you want for the old cases and the old crank as is?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Thanks for the advise. I will keep the cases/crank for set up of cylindes. I have three cranks one are already rebuilt with new honda rods bearings ect. One with old rod and new bearing,shims and pin. The crank I pulled out of the DCP Engine was new in the 02 rebuild. The cranks lookes fine. The little ends checkes ok. The big end looks good. I will install new oem pin and bearing and shims. This is the last bearing I have. The #1 crank with new rod and bearings ect is a crank that the clutch end is not to godd but usable. The other is a newer crank in great shape with the new bearing and parts using old rod. All are oem honda parts. I most likly use the crank already done unless time allows for redoing the DCP one. The bearing on the stator side with lock tight would be ok with me since it,s not that far out but the clutch side really conserns me. I see and understand the point associated with fixing the case. It may prove to be a problem with missalignment and Engine vibration and failure. A slug would need to be cut to check alignment. This type of work is above my skill levle and right up speeds alley. However I encourage other to try them selves so I should take my own advise and give it a shoot if I procedd with that type of fix. I think I will try the lock tight and just see how well it sets up in a mock up assembly. I wil luse a good old set of bearings and the the DCP crank after I check it's run out. Then I will see how well it holds on the clutch side. Any way I go it will make a good spare weekend Engine, or test plateform. Well heres the video of the bearing fit so all get chuckle.


Attachments:

DCP Main bearings.wmv [ 2.58 MiB | Viewed 910 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:17 am
Posts: 186
I would still use the Locktight.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
I kick around the idea of the locktight and having the cases fixed. The stator side was not that bad and I would feel comfortable doing the lock tight on that side. The one I had to get past was the clutch side and the amount of leverage on it. SInce I,m a back yard hacker and not a professional mechinac I ran the thought by a professional race Engine builder here in Wichita. I taked to otheres out of state but most would not touch it. After first call he also seamed not interested but was willing to take a look. I loaded up parts and went for a drive. After I walked in he rememberd me from years ago when I had some Engine work done. What an attidue change, He said what you got. After a short discussion of the Engine and the P L A N for the new Engine. He said they in his opinon they should be repaired or just kiss you cash good by. He also stated for stock Engine parts and pramiters the locktight must likly ok.

We discussed sevaral options and the pros and cons and both decided to have the case machined out and new AL inserts pinch fitted and tehn remill the insert for the new bearings. The material will be a 7075. He feels this will provide the best fitment and expansion rates for the stock cases. If you wodering aboout price not discussed since its a time and material cost. Since the cases can not be replaced, I'm opting to repair and see what happens. As stated before if it does not work, good set up cases.

I oped to set up a set of bearing clearencing them to slid on the crank and prep a cylinder for the for the repaired cases.
Heres some pics.


Attachments:
EX side at Ring location at new Blowdown.JPG [62.38 KiB]
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Cose up of base line EX port.JPG [37.28 KiB]
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Close up first cut EX.JPG [40.12 KiB]
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EX first cut.JPG [69.74 KiB]
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EX first clean.JPG [69.38 KiB]
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
Numbers of changed EX port.JPG [53.67 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
checking and logging port angles.JPG [56.74 KiB]
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Left main transfer.JPG [84.81 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
Left Main and Rear transfer.JPG [77.54 KiB]
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First cut Left side Main and Rear Transfer.JPG [89.05 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


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Boost-Intake port pre cut.JPG [105.13 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
Boost-Intake post cut.JPG [88 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
Boost-Intake clean angle change.JPG [88.24 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
Right side untouched transfers.JPG [68.22 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


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Rear transfers and boost -Intake new angles.JPG [94.76 KiB]
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Engine on stand for new degree numbers.JPG [97.75 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
Right side Rear and Main Transfers.JPG [82.32 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Notes on work for this set up.

Please note: Just a hacker here, Do not use this as a guide. Just playing around


Attachments:
Base line work sheet.JPG [96.04 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
EX cut notes.JPG [66.49 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
New open port timing number.JPG [50.45 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 382
Location: NY
Looks good , although I have no idea what those numbers mean. :shock:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Hotrod, I will do my best to explain and hopefully other can correct any mistakes. Not sure what you mean by the numbers as far and the abrevations or the numbers them selves. Briefly the Engine rotates 360 degrees ( a full circle)for one revolution of the crank shaft. Half of that is 180 degrees ( 1/2 of the circle) TDC (Top Dead Center) is top dead center or the pisotn is at the top of the cylinder and BDC is bottom dead center of the piston at the bottomof the cylinder. (A)TDC (Top Dead Center)= (after) top dead center. Thnk aboout the degree wheel as a clock and the hands on a clock If the hands read 12:00 that's TDC (Top Dead Center) or if it reads 12:30 its BDC. You will see the time refrennce later in the post. So 12:15 is ATDC or after top dead center or 90 degrees ATDC. The right angle represnts 90 degrees as you look at the hands. Now that you have a vage discription I'll move on the other stuff like the numbes. Since I have no porting softwear I have do do things by hand which now have been transfered to a spreedsheet to help cut down on math time ( another time refrence). Here is an example of the math on paper and how it works and the reflection of the work. Again I can not tress enoungh it's just one step in the process so do not start hacking. Since I have built sprred sheet to expidite the math and set standard praimerters the degrees number is all I need for this portion of the porting.

This part for (T) Time or port open time is seconds. The port opening in degrees will give me a duration in degrees which is required to calculate (T) or time in second the port is open at specific rpm's ( revolution per inute). The hand math for a scale is long hoever using a spreed sheet the time is with in a second as the degree numbers are entered and than a cart is made.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:21 pm 
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Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
First I will cover the math involved for (T) See pic for application. What I,m trying to achieve is a base line for port openings at a given rpm to which the power band will be set and specific Engine componets are used which were devolped to run at those rpms. For this one must know the duration ( From time it opens and to time it closes)of the port opening. The varible here is the duration and the rpm. Both seconds and degrees is fixed and need to be frationed twice since we have two fixed and two varibles in order to get a sum. Me being bad at math need shrot cut do to being lazy. If you look at the pic you will see that the two fractions have been combined to represent (T). This is a well known formula develpoed by very smart people, not me. So the formula is written 0 ( do not know approiacte key board stroke)for degrees over N x6 or rpm x 6. Now will know what the duration in degrees is do the previous work with the degree wheel. NOTE: There is some varible in there due to the nature of the degree whell.


Attachments:
Basic operation of (T).JPG [69.53 KiB]
Downloaded 151 times
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
This pic will show you the numbers and how they apply and how I determened the effects of the first cut. I will touch more on this latter I gota head to the machine shop.

Hope I did the math right. Some one check and correct if wrong, Thanks.


Attachments:
#1 cut effect on (T) .JPG [67.21 KiB]
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
I have a few pics to share before I go ridding this morning. I did some mean area math on base line first cut and proposed #2 cut. I scratched out the #'s on #2 for know until done. The sec-cm2/cm3 math showed it is still not where I wont to be. I ran it though my spreed sheet and found not enough mean area and duration. If anybody is interested in a step by step on logging the numbes to paper for fun. I would share step by step, building on "H" great pencil/paper mapping. There is also step by step (Some what) instruction in Gordon Jenning Book for those who has them or the file.


Attachments:
#2 proposed flow across piston crown.JPG [56.46 KiB]
Downloaded 132 times
#2 roof port angles for transfer and boost.JPG [58.74 KiB]
Downloaded 132 times
#2 mean area exhaust and main transfer.JPG [73.51 KiB]
Downloaded 132 times
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3173
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Any progress?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
Yea, some. I did some more cylinder hacking and prepped the crank. I checked the run out on the crank I will use to make sure it is within spec. It's with in .0005 inches. If I have an bearing issue I know it will be related to the fix. I will do a test fit with a bad crank to see how it pulls together then tare down and assemble with the good one once I'm sure it has a true alignment. Still working on the final math while the cases are getting fixed. Hope to have them back soon. I also did some ignition timing change for the new hacking for testing and ethanol blend fuel. Since it's down I'm also working on a new rear upper arm to correct an angle issue on the ball joint. Ihave also been looking at other options for the pilot in the Engine dept. Just not sure if I want to do it to my pilot or buy another and work on it so I have one to ride since the wife don't like to share.


Attachments:
Resize of DCP crank 10-10-10.jpg [43.9 KiB]
Downloaded 112 times

crank run out flywheel side.wmv [ 2.45 MiB | Viewed 873 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3173
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
adnoh wrote:
Yea, some. I did some more cylinder hacking and prepped the crank. I checked the run out on the crank I will use to make sure it is within spec. It's with in .0005 inches. If I have an bearing issue I know it will be related to the fix. I will do a test fit with a bad crank to see how it pulls together then tare down and assemble with the good one once I'm sure it has a true alignment. Still working on the final math while the cases are getting fixed. Hope to have them back soon. I also did some ignition timing change for the new hacking for testing and ethanol blend fuel. Since it's down I'm also working on a new rear upper arm to correct an angle issue on the ball joint. Ihave also been looking at other options for the pilot in the Engine dept. Just not sure if I want to do it to my pilot or buy another and work on it so I have one to ride since the wife don't like to share.


Is the bad crank just not sealingat seal or big end bad. If it is run-out then your cases might not like up correct if using for "mock up" right?. I think I understand what runout means, Essentially you want both lobes to be paralell when installing the big end "rod". I like you video, Good hacker info here!!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Posts: 2854
Location: Wichita ks
The run out is a number of the crank center line. Since there is two crank half put together to make one piece and the pin is offset from center if the two pieces are not in line with the crank center line it wil wobble and that's bad. If the crank is not within a certion toleereence than the wobble ( we will call it) will cause a vibration as it tries to center its self. Kinda like a death wobble in the front end by bad berings and miss alingnment. If excessive run out is encountered than the carnk as it tries to self center in two sets of bearing something has to give. The bearing is only goan take so much and that's what the engineers determined the max run out can be. If the beraing do not self destruct than the cases there mounted in will frature or wear to a point the miss alignment will reduce friction. In my case the crank measured is very close to true .0005 as will be used for the new motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) ( Engine).I will measure a test crank and then in stall in the cases after there fixed and mearure the rotationl load to make sure the cases are with spec as well. As a poor example: if I put in the test crank and as I turn it and it seam to get tight in a spot of two than the bearing center lines are off or the bearing as not in there square to the new bore of the case. This will increase rotational load and in no time the bottom end will self destruct as the rpm increase. As the cases are pulled together if there real bad than they just will not line up, if they do then I will check the run out and the rotaion l force requred to turn the crank and compare this to previous measurement I've taken during other assemblys. This is the same as a v-8 crank install checking for line bore issues. The rule for v-8 is 10lbs per cylinder any more then there a problem and will lead to rod/crank failure. A torgue angle guage is good to use here.There should be some load or things are to looses however the load should be with in a certian number as rotated. Any time there been a massive failure the crank run out should be chacked and as a pre causion the run out should be checked evry piston replacement.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
As far as seailng goes the seals are much more foregiving than the bearings. I have two good cranks that are fresh and one that's need to be fixed. The bad one is pretty true as well and since I'm doing a test fit than that's my crank of choice since it has to come apart any way. After the test fit is complete and acceptable then after removal of the crank the run out will be rechecked. Since I pull the cases together there is no inner force applied to the crank half which can throw it out of alignment. During assembly of a rod it's refered to as wedging or spreading some times all it need is the wedge between the two halfs to correct the run out. This way it can be brought in to with .001 or better. The run out can also tell you if a part is bent like the end of the flywheel side where I have found most bent from dissambly of bearing failure. The stub portion can be bent and the crank still be ok if the run oout before and after the taper are ok. Ive seen it all check untill I get there than the run out increases sometimes past spec. If I would have tried to true it up in a lathe then the run out were the bearing and flywheel rotate would be off and vibration would accure. Excissive vibration will keep a Engine from reving as well aas cause excessive heat and lead to blown head gaskets. I have always found it best to measure working out so as to get an idea of the crank half's shape. You can almost bet if some had a bearing failure on the clutch side at speed the crank is off. Since this is a new fix I need to collect data to make sure its a fix and not a problem. This is why I oped to have the case bored piece fitted and then rebore incase the insert was a tad off or not square in the bore. It cost more to set up twice. I do fell its a better way than makeing the insert boring the case and fitting. It reduce the chance by one that the bearing is not square and centered. At least I hope.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:48 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
If the fix does prove not to work the cases will be used for set up using clearenced bearing for cylinder prep and testing. Than a new power plant will be installed in the DCP. The static run out will not effect the cylinder measument since there is no rpm to facor in and the crank run out will not be an issue. I will cut certain parts off the cases so in no way can they ever be sold or used in a working Engine. Theres a thought, pratice cases for big bore stroked cylinders. UMMMMMMMMMM ! Gota remebr I tend to rev the Engine prety hard So I need it to be as true as I can get it. If not it will make a good picture who knows it still might. The final port numbers as pretty crazy for what I'm attempting. I wish my Father would have beat the heck out me when I first took the lawn mower apart to teach me a lesson as why not to mess with what works. Thick headed I guess.


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