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 Post subject: Rear Brake caliper work
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Had time to do the caliper work today. Board is slacking a little or just being nice. In the out of storage post I fixed the slope in the caliper holder and installed new pads. I also tightened up the Brake Disc Hub. No one mentioned the way the new pads set in caliper.

The whole set up was loose and was allowed to find its own way. Now that the play in the Disc Hub and Caliper holder was removed and assembly tolerances closed up attention was required to the caliper and pads. The Disc Hub and Caliper was trying to tell me something and I was not listing or was I ?

When an Item is fixed or repaired attention must be payed to the related parts as a whole or do noting at all. If I was to just ride it the pads must likely would go in short order and wear the side pin and brake pads would hang up. The brakes would start to fad away under hard breaking. Good brakes in a fast moving pilot is a must as we use the holly molly out of them.

What I did was check caliper operation and the surfaces related to the pads. I already new the caliper had wear and needed to be fixed. A new caliper is no longer available and a good one is hard to find. Not many low hour pilots out there. I had to cut the caliper so the back side pad set flush under pressure with the disk. The issue was how much material had to be removed to do so. This allowed the caliper cup to move to far out once the pads wore to there limit.
Once cut, some type of shim had to be inserted.

The fix should be fine until a suitable replacement can be found. No way I could sale it like that. The new owner would go though a lot of pads and could loose rear braking and crash. There is enough 40 hr guys out there.

I would also recommend to all, they check the caliper status. Pull those pads and take a look. Sloppy caliper older and angled pads are an indicator of this issue. If you catch it before it gets to bad a shim would not be necessary.


Attachments:
File comment: old pads and slid pin
Removed pads.jpg
Removed pads.jpg [ 93.55 KiB | Viewed 2374 times ]
File comment: from out of storage post
New pads in Caliper GAP.jpg
New pads in Caliper GAP.jpg [ 35.02 KiB | Viewed 2374 times ]
File comment: New installed pads with test run on them
New pads.jpg
New pads.jpg [ 105.99 KiB | Viewed 2374 times ]
Caliper wear.jpg
Caliper wear.jpg [ 47.84 KiB | Viewed 2374 times ]
Pad sitting crocked.jpg
Pad sitting crocked.jpg [ 49.44 KiB | Viewed 2374 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
Remove material.jpg
Remove material.jpg [ 45.67 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
Pad to caliper gap.jpg
Pad to caliper gap.jpg [ 47.37 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
Cut caliper.jpg
Cut caliper.jpg [ 45 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
Need to shim.jpg
Need to shim.jpg [ 46.9 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
File comment: old pad from tool box
old pad front.jpg
old pad front.jpg [ 52.42 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
more pics from
Back Yard Hacker


Attachments:
old pad back.jpg
old pad back.jpg [ 48.6 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
old pad back removed.jpg
old pad back removed.jpg [ 40.17 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
old to new 1.jpg
old to new 1.jpg [ 46.04 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
old to new 2.jpg
old to new 2.jpg [ 48.46 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
old to new 3.jpg
old to new 3.jpg [ 50.25 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Last pics


Attachments:
shim instaled with new pads.jpg
shim instaled with new pads.jpg [ 41.57 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
Caliper reinstalled.jpg
Caliper reinstalled.jpg [ 61.75 KiB | Viewed 2373 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Yes all the I rod bolts are tight. Look in last pic. Should have waited for some one to notice.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
do you think it would be possible to build up the warn caliper with JB weld and then file it back to spec as another option to machining?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Kuma wrote:
do you think it would be possible to build up the warn caliper with JB weld and then file it back to spec as another option to machining?


I can't see why that wouldn't work. It's a good idea.
There is also heat transfer from the pad so you would have to use the long cure JB weld.
It has a higher temp rating than the 5 min stuff.
I think a guy could easy spot weld some aluminum on it if you had an aluminum welder.
My question is: "How did that wear happen" ?? I don't understand. What am I missing ??
CO


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
CO, time and hard use.
The thing I like about the stock pads is the material on back side of pad to help with heat soak. All after market pads do not have this.

The stock pads no longer available.
What a shame.
I'm looking into changing the whole set up to a stock pad set up so this type of pad can be used.
My wife's pilot is in good shape. She refuses to sale it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
CO, time and hard use.
The thing I like about the stock pads is the material on back side of pad to help with heat soak. All after market pads do not have this.

The stock pads no longer available.
What a shame.
I'm looking into changing the whole set up to a stock pad set up so this type of pad can be used.
My wife's pilot is in good shape. She refuses to sale it.

I have about eight sets of used after market with solid back plate. After I test ride and make sure they wear evenly I'm going to use one of them as a spacer and fasten in place.
This will give greater surface area to the back side pad instead of pad pressure in two smaller locations.


Attachments:
IMG_20200817_162143845.jpg
IMG_20200817_162143845.jpg [ 31.06 KiB | Viewed 2326 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Went and got old pads out of tool box to do some pics. You can see the difference from stock to EBC. The pics also tell a story in way of wear patterns on how I got to this point. I did not however ave a the slid pins with deep grooves in them. Must have trashed them, sorry

Each pad set has numbers and wear mark indicators in order to pair up
The stock pads have a less pad material on them stock however has thicker back plates and other materials which I feel is a better pad over all.

I will be ordering in a different brand set than EBC and check them over against stock. As you can tell from pics I am kinda hard on the breaks. Another item to mention is there was a new Disk installed at the beginning of pad usage shown. I should have replaced the caliper at that time. What a cheap _ _ _.


Attachments:
Pad sets.jpg
Pad sets.jpg [ 89.39 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Placement  indactors.jpg
Placement indactors.jpg [ 77.75 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Stock pad set #.jpg
Stock pad set #.jpg [ 61.23 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Cup  & Caliper impressions.jpg
Cup & Caliper impressions.jpg [ 81.68 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Pad set numbers.jpg
Pad set numbers.jpg [ 75.3 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
Pad set wear angle 1.jpg
Pad set wear angle 1.jpg [ 59.26 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Pad set wear angle 2.jpg
Pad set wear angle 2.jpg [ 59.71 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Back Plate 1 stock.jpg
Back Plate 1 stock.jpg [ 70.59 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Back Plate 2 EBC.jpg
Back Plate 2 EBC.jpg [ 72.39 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Back Plate 3 Stock total thickness.jpg
Back Plate 3 Stock total thickness.jpg [ 74.16 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
Distorted holes 1.jpg
Distorted holes 1.jpg [ 64.16 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Distorted holes 2.jpg
Distorted holes 2.jpg [ 94.56 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Distorted holes 2A.jpg
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Distorted holes 3.jpg
Distorted holes 3.jpg [ 51.58 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Distorted holes 4.jpg
Distorted holes 4.jpg [ 80.22 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
more pics


Attachments:
Distorted holes 5.jpg
Distorted holes 5.jpg [ 69.1 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Distorted holes 6.jpg
Distorted holes 6.jpg [ 87.96 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Bent back plate 1.jpg
Bent back plate 1.jpg [ 39.95 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
Bent back plate 2.jpg
Bent back plate 2.jpg [ 36.38 KiB | Viewed 2319 times ]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
As you can see from the pics EBC is not a good choice unless the have changed there design in way of back plate thickness and material type to resist warpage. The other brands I looked at does not have the stock stainless steel and assorber backing. From the pics it does appear to have a thicker back plate. Depending upon new pad back and over all thickness the old stock unit may get cut up and the stock backing added to the aftermarket pads. May use some type of high temp adhesive.

I will be looking into a caliper swap which does incorporate a parking break.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
I'm pretty sure my calipers are in bad shape too, I'll make that another off season project to look at fixing with JB or DevCon, possibly search for a replacement caliper off another machine?
On a side note, I don't feel that I am hard on my rear brakes at all, seldom need them in the sand, ever try pushing one of these through deep sand LOL.
I do know that when you suddenly do not have brakes, you realize how much you miss them real quick


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7698
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Great work posting adnoh.
I have actually made my own brake pads with the stock backing plate and the EBC ones.
There is a post on it. Unfortunately I haven't got a chance yet to run them so can't report.
Also when I get a chance I will post in tech section about an idea I had while racing cars back in the day. It involves the brake piston. Maybe post that idea later tonight.
CO

Kuma wrote:
I'm pretty sure my calipers are in bad shape too, I'll make that another off season project to look at fixing with JB or DevCon,


Don't use the Devcon on my opinion.
We used that stuff back in the late 70's and in my opinion it's no good.
From what I remember it seemed to crumble. No where near as good as JBweld of today.
CO


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
I ordered some JB weld Steel stick, is is a puddy and seems to be rated for the highest temp.
We'll see


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:47 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:30 pm
Posts: 537
Location: Nebraska
Great Info as always Rich...

I've just started rebuilding a couple basket case pilots recently myself.

Getting them stripped and ready for paint.

I replaced the driven primary shaft on one of my reduction boxes with a custom 1" shaft so that I can run a better arctic cat driven, but the manual doesn't specify how much to load the springs.
Thanks to this site and "adnoh" old post on the subject I was able to get an idea
(yes I should have measured their height prior to removing - crap)

Threw in a picture of my "back yard hacker" driven spring compressing tool :-)


Attachments:
tool.jpg
tool.jpg [ 84.11 KiB | Viewed 2268 times ]
cluch_pack.jpg
cluch_pack.jpg [ 71.29 KiB | Viewed 2268 times ]
bare_pilots.jpg
bare_pilots.jpg [ 98.43 KiB | Viewed 2268 times ]
brake_parts.jpg
brake_parts.jpg [ 77.93 KiB | Viewed 2268 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
That's so cool.
You have your work cut out for you.
With the stock clutches no longer available. A cat set up would be a nice choice.
If only a machinest would make some so there's a choice. With a Engine change would be nice to be able to set up the driven to take advantage of it. Your hacker tool is better than mine, makes the snap ring easier to remove and install.

You should post up your rebuild for us to enjoy, off to a great start. Wish I lived near by.
Thanks D


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
I pulled my caliper off today, it is in about the same condition as shown in your firs picture, I think I may have found the root cause of this unusual wear, the guide holes in my bracket are pretty worn, I pulled the rubber dust boots out and put the calipers in and was able to rock it quite a bit. I think I may be looking into putting some sleeve into the bracket.
Also still pursuing the possibility of finding a replacement caliper but it will still need to fit the same bracket.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
I think I'm giving up on trying to locate a replacement caliper, I have found some good prospects for fitment but I believe they rely on the bracket to retain the brakes where the pilot uses the hanger pin.
it's amazing that Honda had Nissin build a brake caliper specific to the odyssey and pilot rather than simply retro fit something from a bike they already were using or even from a car. seems that type of thinking probably contributed to the short production, most people at that time would prefer to by a 250R for 1/2 the price, had it been a 2 seater who knows.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:06 pm 
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Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
Delete double post


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
The way the pilot set up worked is like no other for sure. Speed may need to make a run of holders for stock replacement or a brass insert kit. I just drilled mine and installed a brass sleeve then drilled them for the new pins.

May have to take back apart to shoot pics and material used.

I am also looking into fitting a trx450 on it using a different Holder. The only issue is the bleed screw. The 200 x is similar to size of pilot since I run Trx 450 front might as well make it work so a pad kit can be used. Stock honda for the next 30 years.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
You can see, my caliper is pretty bad too
Attachment:
File comment: worn out caliper
IMG_20200830_135203855.jpg
IMG_20200830_135203855.jpg [ 41.2 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

so what I did, start with cleaning, then use a file to score the surface and clean some more.
Attachment:
File comment: cleaned and scored with file
IMG_20200830_135211463.jpg
IMG_20200830_135211463.jpg [ 30.53 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

I used a 1" x 2" x 3" block commonly known as a 123 block it has very smooth finish, I cleaned the surface I was goinf to have exposed to the epoxy and used some pledge wax as a release agent.
I have the Steel Stick, a clamp some files and a razor blade.
Attachment:
File comment: tools used
IMG_20200830_135601238.jpg
IMG_20200830_135601238.jpg [ 57.92 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

follow the instructions on the steel stick, stick some on the surfaces you need to build up and clamp in the 123 block wax surface against back and the epoxy, you don't need to clamp too tight.
Attachment:
File comment: stick on some of the JB stick, clamp in the 1/2/3 block
IMG_20200830_140203042.jpg
IMG_20200830_140203042.jpg [ 56.86 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

Then quickly go to the steering wheel and pump up the rear brake so you set the block hard over smashing the repair into position.
Attachment:
File comment: pump the brakes to set the block
IMG_20200830_140221905.jpg
IMG_20200830_140221905.jpg [ 44.25 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: this squishes the epoxy into position
IMG_20200830_140229013.jpg
IMG_20200830_140229013.jpg [ 48.89 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

this stuff sets up fast, when it gets a little stiff, use the razor to trim along side of the caliper with the block still in place, I use a sawing action, if you just try to push down to slice it, it may push the epoxy off the caliper surface.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:14 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
Attachment:
File comment: I packed the extra material in before trimming
IMG_20200830_141247404.jpg
IMG_20200830_141247404.jpg [ 57.64 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]

I did not wait until it was finished curing and was careful about removing the block, it came off nicely, you could use a piece of cold rolled steel or something else just be sure it is smooth you don't want that bonded to your caliper
Attachment:
File comment: and ready for final touch up once it finishes setting up, using a file
IMG_20200830_142228821.jpg
IMG_20200830_142228821.jpg [ 33.21 KiB | Viewed 2184 times ]


I'm satisfied with the way it turned out, I'll let you know if it falls apart or if it works in the fall or winter.

andoh
not trying to hijack your thread, just thought it would be good to keep similar info in the same place :)


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