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 Post subject: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
we need to have a section here on the sled swaps

anyway, i am considering a 583 swap. i can get two sleds 1989 mach 1 for $300, one running and the other parts. i am looking for more power. its fun the way it is now, but i just want more. what all needs to be done to do this swap anyone that has done it, what would you recommend doing and not doing. if i do go ahead and do the swap there will be a couple engines for sale probably including the liquid 360..


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
fully wrote:
we need to have a section here on the sled swaps

anyway, i am considering a 583 swap. i can get two sleds 1989 mach 1 for $300, one running and the other parts. i am looking for more power. its fun the way it is now, but i just want more. what all needs to be done to do this swap anyone that has done it, what would you recommend doing and not doing. if i do go ahead and do the swap there will be a couple engines for sale probably including the liquid 360..



The 670 is about the same foot print as a 583? check this out viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9241


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
i believe the 440, 583, and 670 all mount the same. you could buy the Engine mount from ebay and savr you quite a bit of hastle. you will need a fuel tank, make the pipe fit, create the wire harness, ect. i can hrlp answer any more specifics the best i can. it would be much easier/cheaper if you arent restoring the ody at the same time


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
yeah if i did this i would probably buy that motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mount that emmanuel makes. thought about making my own but probably simpler just to buy it. as for the pipe i am throwing around the idea of building a custom tuned pipe for it, that will fit the oddy like the factory style pipe did. and i am not a guy that really restores things, my oddy is in excellent shape don't get me wrong, in stead of restoring, i would rather do a resto mod, as they say in the car and truck industry. the wiring would probably be the hardest thing


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
fully wrote:
yeah if i did this i would probably buy that motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) ((Internal Combustion Engine?)) mount that emmanuel makes. thought about making my own but probably simpler just to buy it. as for the pipe i am throwing around the idea of building a custom tuned pipe for it, that will fit the oddy like the factory style pipe did. and i am not a guy that really restores things, my oddy is in excellent shape don't get me wrong, in stead of restoring, i would rather do a resto mod, as they say in the car and truck industry. the wiring would probably be the hardest thing



yeah, i was innitially going to do a restore, but instead i chose to do the sled conversion, but make it look like somthing honda could have done, a sleeper.

The wiring is not all that complicated. if the wiring on the 583 is the same as my 670, they are pretty much a stand alone system, only tieing in the charging system for the battery coming off of the stator, and the kill wire. The rest of it is just wiring up your accessories and wheel controls. Im more than willing to help you with the wiring if you have issues.

In the end, i wouldn't hesitate to do the conversion. Maybe wait till this winter when you wont be wanting to ride as often? It will make the machine have more power, and be more reliable at the same time (or so my 570 has been). Probably the best thing to happen to that machine. I love the power and reliability.


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
Yeah I wouldn't be changing anything until the winter anyway. I am putting the liquid 360 in and going to run it fit the summer


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:22 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Go for it do like I did and design it to all fit by bolting in, I can remove my 440 conversion and put my Pilot back to all Honda in about 5 hrs nothing was cut and butchered everything to support the 440 swap simply bolts in I didnt butcher up the wiring I simply unplugged the electronics for the Pilot Engine and put them in a box for future use, my sled Engine wires is stand alone to the Engine package I installed, I have 2 wires to a switch to kill the Engine and 2 wires to charge the battery..

If the donor sled didnt have a battery and a battery charging system you will need to get a regulator (should already have for lights) and a rectifier to convert it to DC voltage to charge your battery, not really a big deal.

Double the HP and the reliability of a stock Engine running OEM parts.


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: New Jersey
Mabye give ASASZN a PM he was selling his Pilot with the conversion Engine in already. Think he had it on craiglist for a good price as well. Just an option. Think he did a complete wiring harness though and some trans work as well on it though?
BTW what are you doing with the OEM Engine out of your pilot, I would be interested in purchasing it if you would be so inclined to sell.


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:48 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
I forgot to mention that this will be done on a 350. Not a pilot. I would do it as cleanly as posibly and not chop up anything I don't have to. but if I do this the oddy will never see a stock Engine again.


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Do it.... you will never look back... just pick one (as it seems you have) that has many readily available parts.. ie the 580 670 or ..... it is a ton of fun to build and tune... just take your time and enjoy the process :-) and then get ready to change your shorts after your first trail ride... the torque is like being launched out of a cannon...
regards


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2703
Location: Upland, Ca
what will become of the 360 ?


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
The 360 will probly be put on the auction block. As much as I don't want to get rid of it I won't have a need for it anymore. If i do sell it I really hope someone here takes it and uses it. I just had the head on it fixed properly from an Engine shop that deals alot will atv and water craft, and sled engines so he knew what I wanted and needed done. I haven't seen it yet I hope it looks good. They welded up the leaks around the spark plug, lapped it and took old heli coil out and installed a brand new one.


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
so what do you guys that have done this do for clutches. can i keep my 790 comet driven clutch and just use the factory doo clutch


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
You can use the 790 driven clutch, that is more or less the same as stock right? I believe hoser runs that clutch on his 440 swap. On my 570 yamaha swap i am using the stock FL350 driven w/ yamaha drive, and on the pilot i will be using the stock pilot driven with the 670 drive.


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Ontario Canada
IMO/experience, the 670's TRA primary did not get along nice with the stock FL350 driven. The TRA is larger in diameter than the FL350 primary, therefore the gear ratio is way different. You run out of secondary before you run out of revs so you don't get to utilize the power in the 670. It's a very tight fit to get that Engine in an Oddy. so you want to be able to utilize the effort. I never thought that I was utilizing the power that the Engine had, and it was a pig on gas.
We recently did a 600 Polaris swap and used the Polaris driven. It works much better than mine did with the 670.
If I was to go back to a sled Engine I would do a 470. More compact Engine, and the availability of tunable primaryies that would get along better with the stock driven. It might be down a bit on off the line rock throwing grunt, but I bet the useable power would be nicer.

Also I was told the the 670 is very "pipe dependent". Get the expansion chamber wrong and it won't be happy. I was able to fit an un modded 670 single pipe, but my chassis is stretched so I had a little extra room to work with.

If you do go with the bigg Engine and plan on beating on it, do yourself a favor and add some bracing to the Engine cradle area.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:43 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
nitrosport_5 wrote:
You can use the 790 driven clutch, that is more or less the same as stock right? I believe hoser runs that clutch on his 440 swap. On my 570 yamaha swap i am using the stock FL350 driven w/ yamaha drive, and on the pilot i will be using the stock pilot driven with the 670 drive.



Yes I was told the 90D was a direct replacement for the stock 790 on the 350 and its what I run on my 440 Pilot.

Some info on mine http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3007
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2052

KingKX has a 790 on his Pilot and has some experience with these style clutches.
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6723&start=0


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
i have been running he 790 comet now for at least a year or better. i was told it was a better replacement for the stock unit. guess i will have to take a look at the sled clutch and see what size of belt it takes. and then go from there

dave i am using a 583 not s 670. does that make much of a difference. or are they pretty much the same, expect for power etc..


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Ontario Canada
My limited memory recalls that the 583 and the 670 share cases, but the crank,jugs,heads and clutch harmonic balance are different.
When I was looking for an electric start set-up, a local shop had a 582 set-up complete but he told me I can't use it on a 670. The clutch harmonic balance and ring gear offset are different. And thet the 670 would self destruct if I used a non 670 specific clutch. This is what I remember being told, so no expert knowledge here, but I'm sure he would have just sold me the 582 set-up if it was compatible. The ring gear that I did buy from a different shop had "670 only" written on it.

I digress, so back to the 583:
the 583 uses 40mm carbs, the 670 uses 44mm. Shorter stroke may have shorter cylinders/ less height. These may help slightly on Engine fitment.
I do not know for sure if the 583 is as "pipe depentant" as the 670, but I suspect that it is.


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 Post subject: Re: sled Engine swap
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
My 580/583 uses 38mm carbs and some run even smaller carbs... I would say the the 580s are pretty pipe dependent too... Mine was difficult to sort out!


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