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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Once upon a time there was a golden age where SCORE had two classes for Odysseys.
Class 34 was for 350cc and 44 for ‘open’ (up to 600cc).
These classes only lasted four or five years starting in 1985.
And they only raced when the bikes and 3 wheelers ran, 4 times a year (Parker 400, San Felipe 250, Baja 500 and 1000).
I remember the first time I saw a race Odyssey, at the Parker 400, in 85.
I volunteered as a check point worker for SCORE, it was a way to be close to the action and not let my Mom think I was going out to the desert to drink beer.
My first thought when I saw the Odysseys coming threw was ‘I could afford to race one of those’.
It’s only taken me 28 years to actually get one.
I think I missed my window of opportunity.

http://www.tracksidephoto.com/gallery/i ... start=150/" .".." ."..


We fast forward to today and there still are a few places to race an Odyssey.
Most places allow them to run as a exhibition or with the side by sides.
In either case they are a little behind in suspension technology.

So, I plan to document my investigation for modifying the front suspension of my FL350.
Whether I actually do any modifications remain to be seen, fact is I have a working car and after waiting 28 years I don’t want to be without a working buggy.
My target is shoot for a desert racer, like to old SCORE class 34 cars.
The most likely place it would be run is in the TREC series that runs at The Badlands off road park in Indiana.
The Badlands is a gravel pit so it is not as likely to have deep water and mud (it has some mud but not like some of the GNCC races).
The gravel develops whoops and sucks power like sand would but it has better flotation than sand.
And the TREC races are relatively cheap and close to me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2865
Location: East Peoria IL
Lee - Looking forward to seeing your work on this. I realy enjoy watching the TREC races at the Badlands. I try to get there early and ride all day (even if they close part of the park for TREC). Then load up the bikes. Fire-up the grill, cook dinner and watch the races. I like to park along the bowl to the left as you enter the park - along the blacktop road. I look at it this way, you have had 28 years to figure out what you want to do to your odyssey. Sure wish Honda would make some of the odyssey and pilot parts again. Only thing better then that would be a new production line of the pilot. :-)

Love the original photo.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
There are several ways to investigate a direction to take for suspension modifications.
What I want to avoid is deciding what I want to do in a vacuum.
So, I plan to look at what was done back in the day for class 34.
Then I want to look at what is being done on current side by sides.
This should give some perspective on the possibilities, that tempered with reality will set the direction (what I can fabricate on my budget).

Specific information on B rate racers from 30 years ago is hard to come by.
There are a few old catalogs and magazine articles around but they are not always super specific.
It looks like there were 3 main vehicles used in SCORE class 33 plus a couple of home builts.
The contenders where:

Honda FL350 – usually heavily modified for more suspension travel and packed with spares to survive.
Brian Sassta from El Centro campaigned one.
In the ‘90s I attended the Fud races in and around Plaster City Ca.
Brian would run the FL350 as his back up car when the EEE was not running for whatever reason.
I have tons of pictures of the EEEs but none of the FL350.
I saw the FL350 as common and a bit of a hack after a hard life running desert races.
There is a good picture on the Carrera photography web page.
http://www.carreraphoto.com/photos/disp ... =161&pos=4" ."..

Challenger Eagle II, a more heavy duty buggy than Hoser’s Challenger project.
There is some good information on an early version in Hosers’ Challenger catalog, scroll down to the bottom of the page:
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/challengercat2.htm" ."..
There were several variations of this buggy, almost to the point of being a series of one offs.
When I was in school doing the Mini-Baja I spent a lot of time talking to Daryl Smith, of Daryl Smith Sand Tires.
He picked up a lot of the old Challenger stuff and continued to make the Eagle 44, an open class buggy with a Ninja 600 power plant.
Daryl was always good for a story about back in the day and the Eagle II and Eagle 44 cars, not sure how he got any work done with me hanging around.

Pro ATV, they started making stadium buggies but progressed on to desert vehicles.
They are rare but they show up now and then, there is an article and some pictures on The board.
Scroll down a little there is a good article from back in the day (OK, the joke around work is that Dirt Wheels never threw a leg over an ATV they didn’t like).
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5831&hilit=pro+atv" ."..


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
So, a quick comparison of the vehicles I know something about.
First, adding the tried and true Works shocks seems like a good first point of comparison.
See the blue box in the attached table.
The rear suspension travel is increased from almost 6” to almost 7”.
This is not too bad, so for now I will ignore the rear suspension travel.

Red box in the attached table.
The Odyssey front suspension has so little travel.
This is a similar situation for the limited Bugs and buggies in SCORE racing, Class 9 and Class 11 are typically (class 9 is required) use the ball joint front end.
Short stroke front suspension means a rough ride and a lot of work beefing it up to survive.
The Challenger and the Pro ATV seam to use a link pin front suspension (I can’t confirm the Pro ATV, if you have good pictures please share…).
Link pin front ends do not have the angle limitations of a ball joint, so one idea would be to use a VW link pin knuckle with custom arms.

Brown box in the attached table.
The ground clearance and the tire size are directly linked.
If the tire size is bumped up to match the Pro ATV the ground clearance will increase to a similar level.
This is convenient as moving the suspension on the chassis is a lot of work, and simply raising the suspension would need modifications to the ball joint angles and possibly upset the working of the shocks (the motion angles aren’t happy as the shock and the arm become parallel).

Green box in the attached table.
The wheel base is significantly shorter than the race Odysseys.
This will make the FL350 more maneuverable but also more squirrely at speed.
So above I said I didn’t want to move the suspension down on the chassis, but now it looks like there is an advantage to moving it forward on the chassis.
Also, if I make the chassis longer I could fit my Beard suspension seat in without blocking the cooling air for the Engine. (Caution, certain board admins are not fans of suspension seats due to their need for maintenance and replacement. He has a point, don’t follow me blindly without looking in to this).


Attachments:
File comment: Comparison of SCORE race buggies
class 34 comparison 2.jpg
class 34 comparison 2.jpg [ 68.56 KiB | Viewed 2733 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Inspired from some other posts looking for a cheap replacement shock for the rear I took a look at other Honda vehicles to see if there was a good candidate.
I was hoping for something cheap, softer than stock spring rate and 20” of suspension travel.
See the table below.
Bottom line, there is no free lunch.

There is nothing close to the front shocks.

There are 4 candidates for length in the rear, but the change in spring rate seams too much.
The Forman 500 is 27% softer, the Rincon 700 is 33% softer.
Putting a stiffer spring on the shock would be problematic; the spring would over power the damping rate.
The TRX 400 and TRX 450R rears have a much stiffer spring – no need to go there.

The TRX 450R front and rear have adjustable damping force.
So in the back of my mind if I can design around the front shocks I pick up piggy back reservoirs and a little adjustability.
Still looking for ideas on what to do with a set of rears, I know someone who has a pair he just needs a cool idea for a project to drop them on (or the ideal trade to get something he actually needs).


Attachments:
File comment: Comparison of shocks that might fit the FL350 rear
Odyssey Substitute rear shocks.jpg
Odyssey Substitute rear shocks.jpg [ 21.18 KiB | Viewed 2725 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:38 pm
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Location: New Mexico
Nice brain storming, I look forward to following your build also.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Ontario Canada
20" travel??

The u-joints will bind at half of that. Are you planning on keeping the stock mounts for the shocks, or are you open to fabbing new location for them. I don't think a decent bolt on replacement, other than the Works shock, has been found yet.
Find a progressive spring. Soft when it needs to be and stiffens up considerably as it compresses. I have polaris XC 600 progressive springs on mine. I don't know what the specs are. The local sled shops have racks of different springs to fit the Fox shocks. 2nd set I tried work pretty darn good.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Enough of the ancient history.
Currently there is a healthy crop of new and dynamic side by sides.
Only problem is they are new – new cost money.
Back in the day when the Pilot was sold new the cost was a little high.
They sold but at much lower rates than the maker thought they would, and the plug was pulled after only 2 years.
Fact is, some of these buggies are pushing $20k, that is the cost of a mid range Civic out the door.

Originally I thought I would look at only the suspension travel.
Then I thought I should look at power, speed and value.
Value is difficult to measure.
If you have ridden with me you know I usually show up with family in tow.
If everyone is not having fun what is the point (just my point of view).
So I placed a premium on cost per seat.
Also I put a price on the Pilot ($4500) and the Odyssey ($2500).
I tried to quantify these numbers by looking up the NADA dealer price.
These numbers are so low it’s not funny, so my numbers stand.

Below find a chart showing the numbers I picked up off the internet.
Also the graphs comparing the parameters I paired up.


Attachments:
File comment: Side X side comparison
SXS comparison p1.jpg
SXS comparison p1.jpg [ 73.63 KiB | Viewed 2706 times ]
File comment: Side X side comparison p2
SXS comparison p2.jpg
SXS comparison p2.jpg [ 57.29 KiB | Viewed 2706 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Location: East Peoria IL
"If you have ridden with me you know I usually show up with family in tow.
If everyone is not having fun what is the point (just my point of view).
So I placed a premium on cost per seat."



I could not agree more!!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
From looking at the currently available buggies there was confirmation of some things I had heard and a few surprises.
The ‘facts’ first:
• The Wildcat suspension and the RZR 900 are well matched for landing jumps or taking a big hit. However I have heard that the Wildcat with its longer stroke is noticeably softer and gives a more comfortable ride. Where this makes a difference is in open desert / Glamis, when hitting whoops the Wildcat will soak up the bumps all day long. For the RZR to achieve an equivalent level of bottoming toughness it is sprung stiffer.
• The Wildcat is better in big rough (rock crawling) due to its softer suspension and long travel. It is better able to keep a wheel on the ground and clawing than any of the others.
• For eastern / Midwest trail riding I think the Polaris has an advantage (better design if you can believe that). Total suspension stroke is less important when riding in the woods, precision driving and good Engine control play a bigger role.
• The Pilot and the Odyssey need to double there suspension stroke to play at the same level when the going gets rough. For groomed tracks they need a little more power and a little more suspension but they are close.
The surprises:
• The Pilot and the Odyssey are still in the hunt for top speed, impressive after all these years.
• These things are damn expensive.
• By sticking to light weight and one seat you can get by with less power. For me this is good as I don’t plan to mess with the Engine for a while.

So that brings everyone up to date with my last 2 months of daydreaming.
If I were to run out and purchase a new buggy today I would get the Wildcat X.
If I needed to be a little carful with my money and I was not in a hurry I might wait a few years to see what else comes along.
As I am usually broke because I took my family on a 2 week vacation touring Arizona and my daughter wants a new saxophone and …. I will modify an Odyssey.

The grades shown below are a summary of the numbers in my investigation.
Getting raw numbers is a little impersonal and sometimes the assumptions you make at the beginning sway the results more than expected.
For example, I would like to see the Pilot rated higher and the 4 place buggies came out higher than I thought they would.
Take it all with a grain of salt, but wrap you mind around it and learn what you can.

My takeaway:
• Keep the light weight single seat concept.
• Must have much more front suspension stroke.
• Little more rear suspension stroke would be nice.
• I didn’t show it but I also tracked ground clearance, need to keep up with the big boys or you will plow your way around after they dig wheel ruts.



My plan for this week end is to summarize what I would like to achieve with my Odyssey.
Then I can start working on how to do it.


Attachments:
File comment: Side X side comparison - final grade
SXS comparison p3.jpg
SXS comparison p3.jpg [ 31.93 KiB | Viewed 2696 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Quote:
20" travel??


Dave,
The 20” travel comment was tongue in cheek.
In the end I don’t think repurposed shocks will work.

Your video is interesting, the FL350 has a lot of camber change.
The 3-link suspension is usually good for fairly long stroke with good camber control.
The systems limits are like this:
Camber control – length of the transverse links. In the FL350s case the upper link is mounted high and made short to make room for the Engine. This is a trick learned from the auto design group, Honda cars of the era have a similar arrangement to make room for the Engine and transmission, My wife’s ’85 Prelude did something similar with twin A-arms at the front.

Toe control – length of the trailing arm. As the suspension strokes to the limits the tire will start to toe in. I have not investigated yet but I suspect the FL350 is near the limit in rebound. I am hoping there is a little margin in bump stroke. A bigger tire and move the shock mounts up maybe I can find 3 more inches, maybe 2, maybe less. This will help ground clearance also.

Also there is the dreaded U-joint angle limits. As has been recently discussed, the FL 350 is near the limit for rebound stroke.

Lee


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Cant wait to see the finished project you planning on just a family riding machine or you going to take it to the desert and or race? Wish you could have seen and rode Gottrides FL350 before she sold it the suspension worked really great on hers for a riding machine never seen it jump but followed it for hundreds of miles on the trails and the suspension worked just using the WORKS shocks.

Try to change the rear suspension design so the axle is not a suspension link remove all that stress they put on the axles...

First time I seen a 350 my first thought was the japs just copied a VW bug suspension, very smart, too bad they got the rear shocks all wrong and the spring plates on the rear are missing but I thought it was smart to model off a proven design.

I watched the Parker 250 this year from about mile marker 3 on shea road, at about mile 5 I seen people camped and had a FL350 that was not stock and had no plastic was going to go talk to them then forgot makes me wonder now if it was one of the old desert racers wish I talked to them now and took pictures, might go watch the Parker 425 if I am still in the area I will make sure to look for that 350 again and get info and pics.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
SO that's how you do a post, nice work.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
When I received my 350 it had a few items that needed attention.
One, the right rear tire had a slow leak.
I finally got around to looking in to this.
Tried to break the tires off the beads myself with a Harbor freight manual tire changer.
At first the bar slipped off the bead and the tire would compress down doing nothing.
Finally I got a tire iron (made from an old car spring) slipped in between the tire bead and the rim.
Set the tire changer bar on the tire iron and it sliped right in between the bead and the rim.
The tire changer flexed menacingly when I put some weight on it.
So I threw the tires in the back of the car and took them to work with me.
It took only a few minutes to break them down with a real tire machine.

I had assumed the problem with the wheel was rust or something under the bead of the tire.
Pop the tires off, sandblast the affected area and spot paint, reassemble.
The left side tire didn’t have any problems but I figured I would treat the rim at the same time as the right one.
Little surprise in the left tire when I broke it down, there was a tube in there.

Upon closer inspection the problem was the tire not the rim.
Tire had an area that looked like porosity in the bead.
Probably caused by age and sitting on a rim for a lot of years, see the picture.
The rubber was stuck to the rim, when the bead was forced off half the rubber was left behind.
Anyway, I like the OEM tires, they are a good all round general traction tire with good sand traction (for a non paddle).
So I decided to save whatever life is left in the tires I dropped a tube in both and put them back together.

Next up, finish spring cleaning (drain the gas, check compression etc) and take it out for a ride.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:14 pm 
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Location: Upland, Ca
This the one your gonna mod like the old racers of past?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:44 am 
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Location: Chicago
You need to convince Honda to run another batch of tires for the 350 or better yet for the Pilot, I would take 4 pair of rears today... Great all around tire .

Any other mods in mind for the near future?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Yes, it's the only 350 I have.
This tread is both my speculating what I could do as well as what I am doing.
I'm not really trying to recreate an old SCORE 34 car, there is no open desert racing in my area for this class.
However I am strongly influenced by what I saw and learned in the late 80s, early 90s hanging around the FRT races around El Centro.

I would not recommend racing on a 28 year old tire.
However, I might try a TREC race with this thing in it's current condition.
Bottom line is, I don't have the $ or the time to do what I want so I will do what I can.

In the back of my head, I would like to increase the rear suspension travel.
There is no opportunity to increase the droop stroke with out a major change to the drive shafts.
To increase the bump stroke a larger diameter wheel is needed to prevent bottoming the frame.
The Wild Cat is a good example of this, driven aggressively in rocks it bottoms the rear a little more than I would prefer.
So My plan is to nurse the OEM tires along for a while until I decide what to do with the rear end.

And just to cover all my bases, I may slap on Works shocks all the way around and call it good (if I win the lottery).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
Skip the works and just find a set of off the shelf OEM shocks that will work if you use serviceable shocks they can be taken apart and spacers put inside to limit the travel :-) "Work" brand hehe would be the brand I would be shopping for I bet they have some used test parts laying around of no use?

My Challenger even had a primitive external limiters installed http://www.pilotodyssey.com/challengershocks.htm


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Any more thoughts on this ?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
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Location: Springfield Ohio
OK, did some thinking on this a while back.

I would love to know what Pro ATV did for there twin trailing arm front suspension.
I thing they used a link pin set up like the VWs' of the day.
Did they make a knuckle or use a VW?
I don't have any pictures of a Pro Atv

I did see Hoguer62's Pro Atv, it's a single arm front.
Beautiful buggy in great condition, too bad I didn't win the lottery when it was up for sale.

Looking at custom arms for a FL350 I set out some ground rules to start with.
- No modification to the rest of the buggy - incase I don't finish it I can reassemble and have a working buggy.
I might consider relocating the upper shock mount - I can always move it back.
- Can't go too crazy on the length of the arms, the wheel base gets shorter and the steering would need to move back.
I don't want to lengthen the frame and move the steering, just too much work for my life right now (work owns my ass).
- Consider 'borrowing' shocks from an ATV to keep cost down. By using a sport quad I can always get a WORKS or something for that application if I get ambitious and need to adjust the damping / spring rates later.

I dredged up my old info on ball joints and did a little research on what is available today.
See the attached table.
Back in the day the VW bus ball joint was it for high angle - 56 degrees.
I have heard they can be easily modified to do 62 degrees.
Unfortunately it just doesn't fit well in this application.
The stud is too large and the housing is huge.
It would be too difficult to squeeze this in on the stock knuckle.

Recent additions to my list are the Ricky Stator 250R and the Polaris.
The 250R is good for 50 degrees (stop to stop) but only in line with the threaded shaft.
The stud should fit in the Odyssey with no modification (I have not confirmed this myself yet).
I have not tried fitting this in to the stock FL350 knuckle yet.
The Polaris ball joint dose not have a taper stud so the knuckle would need to be modified.

I made a quick layout using the VW bus angles.
This was done before I decided the joint was too big.
With the stock arm length and 56 degrees articulation you get 5.7" stroke.
With a +2" arm the stroke goes up to 7"
The stock Odyssey has 4.3" of front suspension stroke.

7" is not what I had started out dreaming of but it's not bad.
And this is with new arms, new tie rods, new shocks and moving the upper shock mount.
Sounds like a lot less work than a A-arm conversion.


Attachments:
Ball jnt comparison.jpg
Ball jnt comparison.jpg [ 45.82 KiB | Viewed 2152 times ]
PLUS 2 inch ARM AND VW BJ.jpg
PLUS 2 inch ARM AND VW BJ.jpg [ 38.77 KiB | Viewed 2152 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:32 am 
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Location: Chicago
I remember seeing a J arm buggy years ago on Mikes site that was modified the owner claimed 12" travel use it in the desert think it might have been a PRO ATV car, anyways it had a 3rd link and the spindle would pivot so you maintained the caster at any angle of the suspension travel or within a few degrees, I have seen this on another FL250 racer since.

I use to have pictures of this setup but think they were post on my old site and are lost when it was shut down by the darkside mutts.

A buddy of mine has seen this setup also over the years when he use to race FL250's at Ashtabula Ohio and at other tracks in the midwest, on the flat tracks they could lower the front suspension to lower the ride height keep the center of gravity low.

Any shock that is serviceable you should be able to change the valving in if needed.

You do anything for the rear shocks yet?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Quote:
I remember seeing a J arm buggy years ago on Mikes site that was modified the owner claimed 12" travel


Hoser, attached below is an image from the old Challenger catalogue.
Is this the system you where thinking of?
In effect, this is making the single arm FL250 suspension similar to the twin arm system as used by VW and later the FL350.
Link to the catalogue:

http://www.pilotodyssey.com/challengercat1.htm

Quote:
You do anything for the rear shocks yet?


I haven’t done anything with the rear yet.
I keep watching Randman’s thread about FOX 2” airs in the back of his FL350.
I’m hoping he comes up with a winning combo that I can copy.


Attachments:
Challenger cat image.jpg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:22 pm 
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Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Lee wrote:
Quote:
I remember seeing a J arm buggy years ago on Mikes site that was modified the owner claimed 12" travel


Hoser, attached below is an image from the old Challenger catalogue.
Is this the system you where thinking of?
In effect, this is making the single arm FL250 suspension similar to the twin arm system as used by VW and later the FL350.
Link to the catalogue:

http://www.pilotodyssey.com/challengercat1.htm

Quote:
You do anything for the rear shocks yet?


I haven’t done anything with the rear yet.
I keep watching Randman’s thread about FOX 2” airs in the back of his FL350.
I’m hoping he comes up with a winning combo that I can copy.


that's it only I think the arm was longer the one guy claimed 12" travel I didnt see how it attached the steering to this claimed 12" setup.

Anyways I bet it would be a good setup and you could save some weight but only if their was some real travel and control gains to be had to make it worth the effort.

What are your thoughts on that type setup?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Hi Lee, not sure if you have ever looked at the "Kowanda" front kit before. I installed it with Suzuki LTR front adj shocks and TRX450 arms n hubs. I am still slowly installing Bob Briggs race Engine in this 350... viewtopic.php?f=44&t=9133 Just more info to explore.

Gary


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Any more thoughts here Lee, now winter is here you have more time for engineering the Odyssey?


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