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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:46 pm
Posts: 28
Location: New Hampshire, Lakes Region
Hi everyone, I am looking for some help in selecting an Engine for my new Odyssey project. Picked it up 2 weeks ago, and just finished my move a few days ago, so now I am ready to start building. My question is, what are the limits to power that can safely be applied to the stock trans and axles. I am not looking to make a monster, but I like my power. A lot. My current street bike is a 2009 Vmax with just shy of 200HP at the rear wheel. But my goal with the Odyssey is to make a fun, fast, but most importantly, reliable rig. I have seen many 583 Rotax engines, but also some larger,including a 670 twin. I have a line on a complete 670 sled, but I am worried about breaking the expensive stock axles or transmission. I am fortunate where I live, as there are many sleds available for fairly low money. I look forward to gleaning some knowledge from all you experienced folks. Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 6:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
Welcome to the site! first off I have YET to do my first sled Engine swap but do have some info I can give. Quick answer is I would keep it under 125HP. EFI engines are much easier to run...no jetting!

350 trannies are a very good strong tranny with a few weak points you need to know about. The put the same gears n shafts in the "RPM" race trannies(heavy duty cases)....which if you can afford one would be perfect and then you can run nice heavy duty CV axles.

First, the drive line has no slip point. Pilots have a clutch pack that slips under a heavy load. Jumping a 350 under full throttle/wheel spinning hard when you come back down causes lots of flex/torque on everything. The cast aluminum tranny cases can crack under the strain(done it twice).

Next they have needle bearing failures on the AB gear, they tend to fail before anything else, partially because of the stresses of jumping and partially because of the lack of oil being slung on it. Most of us "old timer" 350 guys overfill the oil in our trannies to ensure proper oiling of the bearing. I have also been told(or heard) that idling in neutral spins something in the tranny but doesn't allow proper oiling of bearings too. Not sure about that last one.

Stick with a sled Engine, too much pain in the ass with trying to convert a streetbike Engine with a jack shaft.

Axles are also very strong, weakest point is ofcourse the u joints. The u joint also keeps lateral support...other words if it breaks, the whole hub,tire, trailing arm swings outward and usually bend the shock. Add a limiting strap to save the shock!

Hope that helps some,
Gary


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Shock loading the 350 trans seem to be the problem with splitting the cases from what I am told, like landing off a jump with the throttle wide open even stock 350s were splitting them, also running over a long series of whoops WOT (Wide Open Throttle) was doing it, Honda cured this problem with the Pilot trans with the slipper clutch in the trans.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
Nuke Em wrote:
Welcome to the site! first off I have YET to do my first sled Engine swap but do have some info I can give. Quick answer is I would keep it under 125HP. EFI engines are much easier to run...no jetting!

350 trannies are a very good strong tranny with a few weak points you need to know about. They put the same gears n shafts in the "RPM" race trannies(heavy duty cases)....which if you can afford one would be perfect and then you can run nice heavy duty CV axles.

First, the drive line has no slip point. Pilots have a clutch pack that slips under a heavy load. Jumping a 350 under full throttle/wheel spinning hard when you come back down causes lots of flex/torque on everything. The cast aluminum tranny cases can crack under the strain(done it twice).

Next they have needle bearing failures on the AB gear, they tend to fail before anything else, partially because of the stresses of jumping and partially because of the lack of oil being slung on it. Most of us "old timer" 350 guys overfill the oil in our trannies to ensure proper oiling of the bearing. I have also been told(or heard) that idling in neutral spins something in the tranny but doesn't allow proper oiling of bearings too. Not sure about that last one.

Stick with a sled Engine, too much pain in the ass with trying to convert a streetbike Engine with a jack shaft.

Axles are also very strong, weakest point is ofcourse the u joints. The u joint also keeps lateral support...other words if it breaks, the whole hub,tire, trailing arm swings outward and usually bend the shock. Add a limiting strap to save the shock!

Hope that helps some,
Gary


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:46 pm
Posts: 28
Location: New Hampshire, Lakes Region
Gary, seriously thanks. That is exactly what I was looking for. I would definitely like to find an EFI unit, and am currently on the hunt. I am fortunate because the area I live in is snowmobile country, and they are plentiful and relatively cheap. I am stoked to get going on this.

Hoser, does the Pilot trans fit into the Ody? I like the idea of switching to CV shafts. Or is there a better alternative for similar money?

Thanks guys,
Michal


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Ontario Canada
Be prepared to do some clutch tuning/experimentation. I had a 670 in mine. Never worried about the trans or axles, plenty strong. Of course shock loads are the big variable .
I just felt that I was wasting alot of the power that the 670 had because the Rotax TRA primary, and the Oddy secondary were not getting along. It had rock throwing torque off the line, but was lazy in the top end. Light spring in the primary helped lots with about a 3500rpm enguagement. Keep in mind that you are dealing with a 10:1 reduction in the Oddy gearbox vs typically a 3:1 in a sled. Oddy secondary diameter is smaller than a sled secondary. Gearing is everything, blah blah blah.
We did a 600 Polaris swap in my buddy's Oddy, with the Polaris secondary and it is much happier than my 670 was.
If I was going to do another sled Engine swap I would do a 470 Rotax. More compact, less pipe dependent, good usable power, and will allow you to run a smaller, tunable primary with the stock seconday.

But I do like shifting on my own now. :-)


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
Shifting in an Odyssey wound be a blast! I remember your thread, foot throttle right?

While we are talking about it, I had an adapter shaft made up for the larger driven clutch hole with the 98 AC 600 EFI Engine that I will eventually install in a 350. I was thinking there was a frame clearance issue with the larger driven clutch???? Anyone need specs or pictures of the adapters?

Gary


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:46 pm
Posts: 28
Location: New Hampshire, Lakes Region
A local guy here built a home made buggy and put a 600cc street bike Engine in it. Pretty much just spun the tires all the time, but that is what her liked to do. I have access to a complete, running 600 and was thinking of that possibly. Foot throttle and clutch, hand brakes, hand shifting. 4 cyl is a bit wide though. Too many options.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 224
Location: Ontario Canada
IMHO, 4cyl bike Engine is too peaky. All high rpm power, no torque where you need it. Depending of course on the type of riding you plan on doing.
I run a 678cc single cylinder.
~42 ft/lbs of torque at 5000rpm, vs say a CBR600 with 44ft lbs at 10,500rpm.

Bike Engine gear ratio's are all over the place. You'll need to step up the output rpm accordingly.
Remember 10:1 reduction in the Oddy gearbox.

Got any 660 or 700 Raptor's where you are? built in reverse.


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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
Ya, twin sled engines instead of triples because of the width. Not sure about cutting/widening a frame, it looses the design safety integrity unless you know exactly what you are doing.

I have seen some really cool "mini rails" with sport bike engines, they were real fast with lots of suspension. Drakman and his son had some Drakart Tigers with GSXR 750 engines and pneumatic paddle shifting...way cool stuff. DaveM did one recently, maybe give his build thread a good read. Looks like he posted before I finished this post! LOL Fully is also putting a TRX450 in one, another good read.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:47 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
I've been running a Yamaha exciter II 570 in my fl350 for about 2 years now.. maybe a bit more I forget. I ride it often and do ride hard. I have had 0 issues. only thing I've done is changes the trans oil every season. the exciter is rated at about 85hp. it has been a fantastic little Engine. the Yamaha vmax 600 sled uses the same bottom end I believe. I wouldn't hesitate to do that swap. they make great reliable power, but not so much power it becomes unusable. my pilot with a 670 rotax is almost useless on trails. the dunes, that's a different story :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:16 am 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 6:46 pm
Posts: 28
Location: New Hampshire, Lakes Region
All great info, I appreciate all the help. I will look into the Raptor motors. Not too many sport quads around here near as I can tell. Most folks have 4x4s for camping/trail riding. There is however a complete early 90's Vmax 600 sled for sale locally, and it may be just the ticket. Going to call on it today and maybe go take a look at it. Thanks again for all the input.


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