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Front J-arm lift
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13253		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  birvin [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Front J-arm lift
Ok so I tried the A-arm and didn't like the way it was turning out. I was trying to raise the front end and install disk brakes, but keep the same width the same. I ride in a lot of tight woods so I couldn't make it any wider. Just about drove me crazy so I took some time and thought up a new configuration. I am making new J-arm pivots because mine are bent. I am going to make the bottom pivot point the new top pivot point. Then install new ones on the lower end using the same plate to lock the outside back together. So far I have the top ones made and will start on the Bottom ones maybe this weekend. Here is what I have so far:

Attachments:
File comment: I'm not a machinist but it fits and works.
photo (5).JPG
photo (5).JPG [ 34.12 KiB | Viewed 3014 times ]
File comment: this is the new setup that I'm trying to get.
photo (2).JPG
photo (2).JPG [ 40.83 KiB | Viewed 3014 times ]
Author:  B S [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
looks like you're off to a great start I hope it works out for you
Author:  nickRNR [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Are you just trying to get more ground clearance? I believe that Shoubadaba's A-Arm conversion makes the front the same width as the rear, so yes you are widening the front end, but that is a good thing when riding woods and here is why. If you make the front the same width as the rear, you know that if the front tires clear, so will the back tires. I have seen people clear stuff with their front tires, but then get hung up on the rear tires because they didn't realize the front is much more narrow than the rear. Just a thought.
Author:  B S [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
nickRNR wrote:
Are you just trying to get more ground clearance? I believe that Shoubadaba's A-Arm conversion makes the front the same width as the rear, so yes you are widening the front end, but that is a good thing when riding woods and here is why. If you make the front the same width as the rear, you know that if the front tires clear, so will the back tires. I have seen people clear stuff with their front tires, but then get hung up on the rear tires because they didn't realize the front is much more narrow than the rear. Just a thought.

totally agree with you on that nick
rustys looks great
Author:  hoser [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
WHY don't you just make new J arms that are longer and have replaceable ball joints like they do on the VW's you get more travel you also can use better shocks and you can raise the front slightly for more clearance, you also can make the front wider if you like just like they do on the VW's .

VW's also make longer trailing arms to give them a longer wheel base and more suspension travel, of course they make them wider too if desired.
Author:  birvin [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
nickRNR wrote:
Are you just trying to get more ground clearance? I believe that Shoubadaba's A-Arm conversion makes the front the same width as the rear, so yes you are widening the front end, but that is a good thing when riding woods and here is why. If you make the front the same width as the rear, you know that if the front tires clear, so will the back tires. I have seen people clear stuff with their front tires, but then get hung up on the rear tires because they didn't realize the front is much more narrow than the rear. Just a thought.

I see what you are saying and agree, but I want the front to stay the same wigth due to the trails that I ride. I have installed a good strong set of bars to protect the rear tires and I do steer with the throttle alot due to the tightness of the trails. But the way that I am looking at it is to put a skid plate under the lower J-arms to protect the tie rods and pick up more ground clearance. We have alot of stumps and rocks that I have bent the tie rods on several times, it will jar your teeth. LOL Thanks for the comments, evrything helps. Thanks Billy
Author:  birvin [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
hoser wrote:
WHY don't you just make new J arms that are longer and have replaceable ball joints like they do on the VW's you get more travel you also can use better shocks and you can raise the front slightly for more clearance, you also can make the front wider if you like just like they do on the VW's .

VW's also make longer trailing arms to give them a longer wheel base and more suspension travel, of course they make them wider too if desired.

I was going to have to replace the pivot for the J-arms anyway due to there condition bent and one had been welded before and was way out of line. If it hadn't have been for that I would have went with new J-arms. But in my way of thinking if I set it up this way there won't be anything below the lower pivot and that will help on the tie rods getting bent and will give more ground room. On the a-arm conversion, I tried that and when you place the bar under the frame for the bottom a-arm you loose more clearance. Also I have found a way to rebuild tha ball joints that are supposed to work pretty good. What I'll do is heat the ball joint with the boot off ofcourse and melt the bushing out, then I am going to heat babbit and melt it in to form a new fit. Alot of the rock crawlers around here are doing it now and it seems to be working good for them. But time will tell on that one. Thanks Billy
Author:  birvin [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
What really surprized me was how easy it was to get the pivots off of the frame, I thought that the pivots would be back inside of the tubing a bit. But when I cut it off I found that past the weld there is only about 1/2" inside of the tubing. so all of the stress is on the welded joint. I am going to have 1-1/2" inside of the tubing and welded at the back end of it. I plan to drill a couple of holes to spot weld the new piece to the tubing this will help spread the stress. Does that make sence to y'all, their way has worked for a long time but it can't hurt doing it this way. Thanks Billy
Author:  Randman [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
I hate to rain on your parade but.....I am curious on how you are going to keep the front swing arms from folding backwards or twisting in or out. By flipping the mount you have lost one of the structural supports.

Rand
Author:  birvin [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Randman wrote:
I hate to rain on your parade but.....I am curious on how you are going to keep the front swing arms from folding backwards or twisting in or out. By flipping the mount you have lost one of the structural supports.

Rand

I am going to make brackets to hold the bottom pivots and weld them going back to the frame under the bottom and also make a piece of tubing to fit them in and weld it to the bottom of the buggy. It won't be straight but will come up to the frame sort of u-shaped. This way I should have just as good of support or that is the way I am seeing it. I will try and draw it up and post a pic. of what I am talking about. But this is the kind of things I am talking about, with asking for comments. I know on here there is alot of knowledge so thanks Rand. Thanks Billy

Attachments:
File comment: Crude but I think you can see what I am saying.
front.JPG
front.JPG [ 84.35 KiB | Viewed 2959 times ]
File comment: Side view
photo.JPG
photo.JPG [ 95.87 KiB | Viewed 2959 times ]
Author:  birvin [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Started some test fitting this weekend, trying to get it tacked together before Thursday. Having knee surgery that day and may not be getting around for a few days. So far it is fitting pretty good. Thanks Billy
Author:  DMoneyAllstar [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
So this is kinda' like one of those Jeep reverse shackle lift kits...flip it under 180-degrees.

Is it gonna' be longer travel or just same travel with more ground clearance?
Author:  birvin [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
So this is kinda' like one of those Jeep reverse shackle lift kits...flip it under 180-degrees.

Is it gonna' be longer travel or just same travel with more ground clearance?

It will be the same on everything but ground clearance and disk brakes before I am finished. And about one more inch of travel. Thanks Billy
Author:  SomeGuyFromCali [ Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Interesting idea I am curious to see how it comes out. Strange enough I was just doing my J arm bushings last night using a speedchaser kit but I am basically leaving it all stock... same thing here I mainly ride in the woods and can't afford to go any wider or I won't fit on the trails.
Author:  DaveM [ Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
What are your plans for the steering arms? You can't lower your spindles that much and leave the steering arms in the stock locations without creating a bump steer issue, can you?
Author:  Danno [ Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news billy but the j- arm pivots go in a lot further than you think
You better have another close look as i have just been through this with mine .
My upper j-arm pivot tube was bent thanks to the previous owner ,so i decided to remove the top j-arm tube from the chassis by grinding away the welds around the the supports being carefull not to change the length of them to much and make it easier to re-fitt the new tube
After i had removed the tube i saw that the j-arm pivot had been plug welded right wear the upper and lower tube support were welded to it ,i then had to drill them out and then using a hacksaw cut through the weld at the end of the tube where the pivot had been welded onto the tube ,not sure if you noticed but that tube is only about 2mm thick and you cant buy it off the shelf i had to get mine machined from a length of thick wall tube to get it right
Ps the length of that j-arm pivot is about 2 1/2 to 3inches long
No t sure where your at with it right now but if you havent re -welded pivots on yet you might want to
Cut back the tube a little more to expose a bit more of the rest of the pivot still in the tube ,that way you can get a better weld on to it and regain some support for the pivot
Hope this helps if its not to late already !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Author:  DaveM [ Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Back side of them is bored out making it look like the tube is pretty thick when you cut 'em off. But as stated the tube is only 2mm or so.
Image

Image
Author:  cooter [ Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Ran into the same problem when I tried cutting mine off for duwem so now I have to cut them out the right way off my other frame. I believe the lower j-arm mounts have a bung go right through the center of the sleeve
Author:  Danno [ Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
cooter wrote:
Ran into the same problem when I tried cutting mine off for duwem so now I have to cut them out the right way off my other frame. I believe the lower j-arm mounts have a bung go right through the center of the sleeve

Sorry cooter cant help you with the lower tube ,THANK GOD i only had to do the upper tube
NEVER DO THAT AGAIN next time it will be an A-ARM conversion
Author:  canadian oddy [ Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Just curious but why didn't you remove the bent mounts (it looks like they are plug welded on mine) and then put in a full length shaft, plug weld and put a full length skid plate under machine to deal with the rocks ???
Notice some gussets on your frame (top of the picture) what's with those ??
Author:  birvin [ Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
DaveM wrote:
What are your plans for the steering arms? You can't lower your spindles that much and leave the steering arms in the stock locations without creating a bump steer issue, can you?

I'm not sure about the bump steer with the J-arm set up but I am changing the front brakes to a disk brake front spindle set. The tie rods are going to be relocated higher up. I just had knee surgery yesterday so I didn't get to work on it today, maybe tomorrow.
Author:  hoser [ Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
birvin wrote:
DaveM wrote:
What are your plans for the steering arms? You can't lower your spindles that much and leave the steering arms in the stock locations without creating a bump steer issue, can you?

I'm not sure about the bump steer with the J-arm set up but I am changing the front brakes to a disk brake front spindle set. The tie rods are going to be relocated higher up. I just had knee surgery yesterday so I didn't get to work on it today, maybe tomorrow.


What kind of surgery did you have to the knee, hope you heal up soon.
Author:  birvin [ Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
I had it scoped and there was a lot of bone fragment floating around and of course arthritis, but it wasn't a bad surgery at all. I have been walking on it since I woke up. It feels a lot better, but the doc said he don't know how long it will last. I am trying to avoid replacement as long as possible. Thanks for the encouragement. Have you hade to have anything done on yours? Thanks Billy
Author:  hoser [ Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
birvin wrote:
I had it scoped and there was a lot of bone fragment floating around and of course arthritis, but it wasn't a bad surgery at all. I have been walking on it since I woke up. It feels a lot better, but the doc said he don't know how long it will last. I am trying to avoid replacement as long as possible. Thanks for the encouragement. Have you hade to have anything done on yours? Thanks Billy



Had MRI done on my left knee they said torn meniscus and it needs surgery my right knee has the same exact symptoms as the left knee so I have no doubt it needs surgery also, my knees have been giving me problems for 20 years 2014 might be the year of the knees for me.

Avoiding replacement at all cost!
Author:  cooter [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Front J-arm lift
Yah I promised a fellow po.com buddy I would get them jarm mounts asap and didn't take my time cutting them off and realized after the smoke cleared it was too late.good thing I'm doing an a-arm conversion on that frame so I will cut up my bent frame and not deal with the hassle just send him the whole tube
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