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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Posts: 78
Dave-Co wrote:
hoser wrote:
Dave-Co wrote:
if you had any idea how thin the roll cage is on that odysee I think it would frighten you. Be safe, good luck


Yup thin and made out of really shit quality metal but they have a great well tested safety record :-)
that they do, but not sure with a gazillion HP Engine the size of a buick in the back LOL

Well the Engine in right now doesn't have a crap load of hp, it's not as much since it's the automatic version. Look it up its a hondamatic cb750a


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:52 am 
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Location: CHICO,CA
Post lots of photos
I want to see how they did it :-)
I need some insite on how to do mine :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:58 pm 
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Here are the pics of the drive train


Attachments:
File comment: A little dirty
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:04 am 
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Location: Ontario Canada
Looks eerily familiar.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:13 am 
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Location: Chicago
Plenty of gearing options with that double reduction setup.

Take it for a ride see how it performs?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Location: Ontario Canada
technically a double step up not reduction. Because of the Oddy trans 10:1 reduction the bike output rpm needs to be increased.
Mine is 16 on the Engine to 13 on the jackshaft. Then 28 on the jack shaft to 15 on the trans. 2.3:1 increase.

760rider, buy some spare chain. Limited lifespan on short chains.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
You said you drove it and it topped out at only 35-40mph...
...was that at full Engine RPM?
...And were you in the "low" gear or the "high" gear?

The Hondamatic has a low and high gear, that's it. Top speed in low was 60mph and 105mph in high. Also, the CB750A with the Hondamatic boasted only 39hp @ 7500rpm. Hence...I don't really understand the benefit in putting this powerplant in place of the stock Engine (??).

Looks like the gearing from the Engine through the sprocket-train is unchanged since you've got a sprocket size "A" coming out of the Engine, driving a size "A", steps up to a size "B", but then the final drive sprocket is back to a size "A". Hence, -0- net reduction through those sprockets. Looks like a 14T and 28T sprockets (tough to see)...

> Engine 14T to 14T jackshaft, 14T jackshaft to 28T jackshaft, 28T jackshaft to 14T gearbox, then gearbox 10:1 reduction.

> Math: Engine gearing x (14/14) x (28/14) x (14/28) x (10/1) trans = Engine gearing + gearbox 10:1.

The motorcycle also had a REAR SPROCKET though. Stock rear sprocket on the CB750A was a 42-tooth. So...a 14T drive sprocket to 42T drive sprocket is a 14/42 or a 3:1 reduction.

Tire size differential could be considered null...CB750 rear tire is 130/80 on a 17" wheel = 23-24" and considered the typical tire OD on an Oddy.

Weight isn't horribly different since the hondamatic 750 weighed 560lb.

So the bike's setup would reduce the Engine RPM down 1/3, and the Oddy gearbox is reducing Engine RPM down 1/10. Hence your buggy is 70% slower than the bike (but more torquey, lol). And this could explain why it only topped out at 30-40mph!!!

Slower, heavier, still air-cooled, and required a tank & jack-shafting...besides it being an easier to maintain 4-stroke and having a "granny gear", I really don't know why they did this swap. :shock:

In theory you'd have to sacrifice some torque and put a bigger sprocket on the Engine shaft to get more top speed. If you could find a 20T drive sprocket and it'd fit, and use 13T on the jack shaft/gearbox, you could improve the output RPM by 1.5x (~~20/13). This would get your top speed in 'high' out to 50mph, but have no idea what would happen to torque, low end, nor chain life. A 22T / 13T combo would maybe get you to 55mph in high gear.

Or...just rebuild the stock Oddy Engine and use it. :-)

In the end, you've still got your money's worth or better in Oddy parts alone. So, don't sweat it!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:25 pm 
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DMoneyAllstar wrote:
You said you drove it and it topped out at only 35-40mph...
...was that at full Engine RPM?
...And were you in the "low" gear or the "high" gear?

The Hondamatic has a low and high gear, that's it. Top speed in low was 60mph and 105mph in high. Also, the CB750A with the Hondamatic boasted only 39hp @ 7500rpm. Hence...I don't really understand the benefit in putting this powerplant in place of the stock Engine (??).

Looks like the gearing from the Engine through the sprocket-train is unchanged since you've got a sprocket size "A" coming out of the Engine, driving a size "A", steps up to a size "B", but then the final drive sprocket is back to a size "A". Hence, -0- net reduction through those sprockets. Looks like a 14T and 28T sprockets (tough to see)...

> Engine 14T to 14T jackshaft, 14T jackshaft to 28T jackshaft, 28T jackshaft to 14T gearbox, then gearbox 10:1 reduction.

> Math: Engine gearing x (14/14) x (28/14) x (14/28) x (10/1) trans = Engine gearing + gearbox 10:1.

The motorcycle also had a REAR SPROCKET though. Stock rear sprocket on the CB750A was a 42-tooth. So...a 14T drive sprocket to 42T drive sprocket is a 14/42 or a 3:1 reduction.

Tire size differential could be considered null...CB750 rear tire is 130/80 on a 17" wheel = 23-24" and considered the typical tire OD on an Oddy.

Weight isn't horribly different since the hondamatic 750 weighed 560lb.

So the bike's setup would reduce the Engine RPM down 1/3, and the Oddy gearbox is reducing Engine RPM down 1/10. Hence your buggy is 70% slower than the bike (but more torquey, lol). And this could explain why it only topped out at 30-40mph!!!

Slower, heavier, still air-cooled, and required a tank & jack-shafting...besides it being an easier to maintain 4-stroke and having a "granny gear", I really don't know why they did this swap. :shock:

In theory you'd have to sacrifice some torque and put a bigger sprocket on the Engine shaft to get more top speed. If you could find a 20T drive sprocket and it'd fit, and use 13T on the jack shaft/gearbox, you could improve the output RPM by 1.5x (~~20/13). This would get your top speed in 'high' out to 50mph, but have no idea what would happen to torque, low end, nor chain life. A 22T / 13T combo would maybe get you to 55mph in high gear.

Or...just rebuild the stock Oddy Engine and use it. :-)

In the end, you've still got your money's worth or better in Oddy parts alone. So, don't sweat it!!

It wasn't at full rpm, the throttle was only going about 3/4(I have to adjust the throttle cable). And that was shifting through both, also don't forget that the carbs need to be synchronized and tuned.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:53 pm 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
760rider wrote:
It wasn't at full rpm, the throttle was only going about 3/4(I have to adjust the throttle cable). And that was shifting through both, also don't forget that the carbs need to be synchronized and tuned.


OK, cool. But the math is what it is. A clean carb isn't gonna' make the Engine turn more RPM than its designed to, lol.


The calculation of what the bike could do:

Knowns:
~24" tire diameter (stock tire size 130/80r17)
42T stock driven sprocket,
14T stock drive sprocket,
max speed in 'low' is 60mph,
max speed in 'high' is 105mph,
Engine rated RPM is 7500 (assume 7500 for now since that's where max HP is rated)

You can work backwards with the tire circumference and speed to determine the wheel and driven sprocket RPM in low and high.
Low = 836 rpm
High = 1462 rpm

Then work back one more step with the stock sprocket sizes to determine the Engine output shaft RPM in low and high gear.
Low = 2507 rpm
High = 4387 rpm

Then since you know the Engine's max RPM rating , you can approximate the Hondamatic's internal reduction (torque converter) for each gear.
Low = 2.99 gear ratio
High = 1.71 gear ratio

And what the Oddy will do:
SO...if you were to put 4387 rpm directly into the FL350R gearbox, you're going to get 1/10th out of it to the axles, and if you're running 24" tires the fastest you can go in Hondamatic high gear is about 32mph (70% less). Figure they left some RPM on the table (~10%) and the actual max Engine RPM is around 8200, and you'll be around 35mph. The double reduction is killing speed, especially the 10:1 in the FL gearbox.

HENCE...you will have to play with the sprocket sizes/ratios or get bigger tires and see what you can get out of it if you want to go faster. It is what it is.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Location: Ontario Canada
You're missing the step up in rpm from the larger sprocket on the jack shaft to the input shaft on the tranny. Looks to be at least 2:1. Now, (using the rest of your math) you are at 8600+ to the input shaft.

On my set-up, at 6500 Engine rpm in 5th gear(.79:1) my engines drive sprocket is at 3750rpm. With the 2.3:1 step up my input shaft is at 8602rpm. Which is right at 60mph.

Image
Image
760rider, get tooth counts on all 4 sprockets. well see how much step-up you have.
Oh yeah, and buy some spare chain. :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
Yep, I guess I was looking at that wrong and was halving the RPM right after it got doubled. Now I see it correctly (was sketching on my whiteboard at work earlier, lol). So that makes it 60mph or so. Glad I was wrong! :-) :-)

Ok, now I want to see/hear this thing at full power. Although I have my doubts since the late 70's early 80's powerplant doesn't make all that much more power than the stock Oddy. Find a newer bike Engine that's 65-100hp and make it a superbike shifter-Oddy!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
Yep, I guess I was looking at that wrong and was halving the RPM right after it got doubled. Now I see it correctly (was sketching on my whiteboard at work earlier, lol). So that makes it 60mph or so. Glad I was wrong! :-) :-)

Ok, now I want to see/hear this thing at full power. Although I have my doubts since the late 70's early 80's powerplant doesn't make all that much more power than the stock Oddy. Find a newer bike Engine that's 65-100hp and make it a superbike shifter-Oddy!!


You remember anything about them old Hondamatics?

A buddy of mine installed one of the 350 Hondamatics on a riding lawn mower many years ago I never got to see it running.

I agree look for a better Engine setup, keep watching craigslist and ebay, play with this one until then :-)

EDIT
Forgot, check the vintage bike sites that 750 Hondamatic might be valuable.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:41 pm 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
There's a '76 on evilGay for $499 without any electrical.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:13 pm 
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Location: Chicago
DMoneyAllstar wrote:
There's a '76 on evilGay for $499 without any electrical.



No kidding that tells me its worth researching to see if it has any real value.

Be cool if he could fund a entire Engine upgrade by selling his current Engine, kill two birds with one stone, Engine upgrade and hopefully put another Honda back on the road, win win :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:46 am 
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Posts: 78
I was thinking about swapping engines, there's a gsxr 600 on craigslist for around 500 but I'm pretty sure it's gone by now, what kind of power plant would you guys recommend? I want something that had speed and torque. Also what do stock 350 engines go for? Might sell both and see what I can get out of them.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:23 am 
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in my odyssey I am converting a zx600 Engine


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:44 am 
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Location: CHICO,CA
383jake wrote:
in my odyssey I am converting a zx600 Engine

Start a new post and post lots of Picts like really a lot :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:00 pm 
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Posts: 194
Dave do you have a lot of time on that setup?

Your first chain goes around 2 small sprockets so it is doing a lot of tight turning and will likely not last as long. But not like your going to put thousand of miles on it either I don't guess.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Location: Ontario Canada
There is 1554 miles on this set-up. I get 3 short chains out of a 120 link package. I have used up 3 120 link chains over the 3 years with it. Every couple of rides I will adjust the tension. Takes about 10 minutes. I've used expensive x-ring chains, and mid price o-ring chains. No difference in lifespan. Next summer I will try a plain inexpensive standard chain and see how it lasts.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:38 pm 
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a 583 rotax has gobs of power for a small car like that, the Farr off road kit looks to be the way to go! Dave-co will be installing this kit into one of my long travel pilots, lots of pictures when I start


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:00 am 
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Location: Ontario Canada
I had a 670 Rotax in mine in it's previous incarnation.

Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:45 am 
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Dave-Co wrote:
a 583 rotax has gobs of power for a small car like that, the Farr off road kit looks to be the way to go! Dave-co will be installing this kit into one of my long travel pilots, lots of pictures when I start
I want to install another 4 stroke. Don't want to turn to a 2 stroke, plus sled engines are hard to find here


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:31 am 
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Location: NW Ohio / SE Michigan
You've got the jackshaft setup already there, so a bike Engine might be a simple near-drop-in. If you can find a fuel-injected GSXR, CBR, etc bike Engine with everything from the rice-pipe to the dash gauges and with the entire wire harness, computer, carbs, intake, fuel send unit, etc. A wrecked bike is a great source. A carb bike is fine, but for a couple hundred $'s more you can simplify with EFI. Look for something you can see/hear RUNNING. You can pick up a '96-03 GSXR 600 for fairly cheap and they put down 90-100hp (97-00 carb 90hp, and 01-03 EFI 100hp) which is pretty much as much as you want to put through a stock FL350 gearbox without losing sleep. Anything newer starts to get pricey to the point where you could just go buy a clean running Oddy or decent Pilot instead.

What scares you about the 2-stroke? Just have to set them up right, break them in right, and maintain them. Its not high-tech! Something breaks on a 4-stroke, and you're pretty much sunk. 10x the parts in a 4-stroke.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:09 am 
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Location: Ontario Canada
Big singles work good. Got the torque down low. Our group has my KLX650, a 660 Raptor, and a 500 Sportsman. 2 shifters and the sportsman runs a CVT. Mine is the only Odyssey, but the other buggies are similar in size, and both of them are heavier.

Yamaha 660 Raptor. If I build another buggy, it will have this Engine. Works awesome, has built in reverse, and dry sump oiling.
Image

Farr was working on a Sportsman 500 swap. Haven't seen any updates though.


I did a lot of research when I was looking for a good 4 stroke to swap in. My concern with a multi cylinder street bike Engine is the torque is way up in the RPM's. You would be screaming in revs all the time. Not really conducive to the type of ridding we do. But I would be happy to be proven wrong if someone successfully does it.

Also packaging a 4 cylinder Engine in an Oddy frame with exhaust air intake will be tight.
A big single leaves lots of room.
My KLX650( bored to 678cc). 6900 rpm tops.
Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:10 am 
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DMoneyAllstar wrote:
You've got the jackshaft setup already there, so a bike Engine might be a simple near-drop-in. If you can find a fuel-injected GSXR, CBR, etc bike Engine with everything from the rice-pipe to the dash gauges and with the entire wire harness, computer, carbs, intake, fuel send unit, etc. A wrecked bike is a great source. A carb bike is fine, but for a couple hundred $'s more you can simplify with EFI. Look for something you can see/hear RUNNING. You can pick up a '96-03 GSXR 600 for fairly cheap and they put down 90-100hp (97-00 carb 90hp, and 01-03 EFI 100hp) which is pretty much as much as you want to put through a stock FL350 gearbox without losing sleep. Anything newer starts to get pricey to the point where you could just go buy a clean running Oddy or decent Pilot instead.

What scares you about the 2-stroke? Just have to set them up right, break them in right, and maintain them. Its not high-tech! Something breaks on a 4-stroke, and you're pretty much sunk. 10x the parts in a 4-stroke.

I know how to maintain a 2-stroke, I'm not saying i won't get one, but just want a 4 stroke in their


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