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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 2840
Location: Wichita ks
Yes it does for the most part. It a bottom out bumper. it softens the blow. You use it when calculating things. If you lift it up from the shaft you may find a spacer. sometimes works uses it to limit stroke.

If we use you 1.85 ratio we can now use your ride heath numbers to get a ball park combined spring ratio. If you were to at zero preload get the vertical wheel travel or shaft travle with a scale under the tire we can do some number crunching.

Let’s go to the book, odyssey manual that is. The manual is loaded with very important information. One just has to work through it.
Dry weight 602 lbs + 3.8 gal tank round up to 4x 7 lb per gal= 28+602=630 wet weight. This without driver
Weight bias or balance for the lack of better expiation Front 206, Rear 396 or 396/602=65.8% (round up) for the rear and the front 100-65.8=34.2%. We can further simply define our results into 35/65 set up. This makes it much easier to work with. Since the front has 35 % we can take our new wet weight into the equation based on a rounded balance front to rear and for each tire. 630 wet weight*.35=220.5/2=110.25 lbs on each front tire for the stock odyssey. Now we can work with this number.

The book also tells us the front has 4.3 “of travel. Oh Boy! very important none the least.

The book also tells us ground clearance is 8.3 inches, with a 21” front tire with a 10” rim.
This is all relevant when installing a longer travel set up in the front. The Main topic here is the shock preload adjustment so we will stay focused on that. The machines corner weight (each tire static load) gives us a key to spring rate and ride height. Based on shock locations to Ground clearance one can calculate to darn close static levels to which a shock can be set for and a desired spring rates.
If we knew what the bottom out poundage for the stock shock was on can easily build a set of spring rate to get proper ride height and bottom out poundage based off of the stock odyssey.

Once you have some base line numbers set in it and take new ones. You can also do the bath scale with the rear tires as well. A pair of scales that are the same work the best.

Since you have them a part you can use a bath scale to push(compress by hand) the main spring down on inch and read what it says. Not perfect but give you an idea. You may only be able to compress a 1/2" however no big deal since the spring is linear. what ever the number times 2. 60 pound per 1/2" = 2x60=120 pounds per inch. I would bet its in the 220 to 240 range. That a back yard hacker way

Also let the air out of the front tires and set on the front end. If the frame hits the ground you may need to spacer the shaft under the bottom out bumper. That is what I was referring to as far as busting the top off a g-out. The g- out will cause very high shaft speed. with the now softer preload you may bottom it out eaisier.

The works uses a spring and ball set up on valveing so it progressive to shaft speed. It was set with a creation amount of bottom out poundage. You can do this by adding transitions spacers on the top tender spring. we can calculate this once we have some data to use.

Cool pic by the way post one with the shock toped out.

Thanks for taking interest.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:57 pm 
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I don't know if this will help but it is more info.
Also check the caption of each photo as some weights are with driver (me).
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16322&hilit=corner+weights


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:53 pm 
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Location: Rhode Island
This is awesome and thanks guys. I want to get this dialed in the best I can and I appreciate the help. I have tried to put most of the heavy stuff on the FL350. Would it be best to adjust the suspension once it is fully assembled or can we get it pretty close like this? I am going to use the scale as instructed and shown and get some numbers to work with anyway. I also have new shocks for the rear so I am going to get them installed.

I will deflate the tires as you said and see if it bottoms out. It looks pretty close in the picture. If I did need a spacer, where would I purchase one? I think at some point I am going to use smaller tires in the front.

I don't have a picture with it jacked up at full droop but here is a picture with it on its own weight and one with my dad sitting in it. He is about my weight.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:29 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
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Location: near NJ rider
That looks much better!
Adnoh knows what hes talking about!
Have you ridden with those front rims?
Offset looks a bit off?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:33 pm
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Location: Rhode Island
bullnerd wrote:
That looks much better!
Adnoh knows what hes talking about!
Have you ridden with those front rims?
Offset looks a bit off?


I agree it looks much better, thank you Adnoh!

I have not ridden with the front rims yet. They are 10X6" 3" + 3"

What would be the preferred offset?
Options that I have found for 10" Douglas .190 :
10X5" 3" + 2"
10X6" 3" + 3"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
Good morning. I see you thirst for knowledge.
Offset is an important choice in the design. We all have read here about those rims are bad etc. go to stock offset!

ok but why?

lets face it we just redesigned the whole car in way of change. What the holy heck have we done. Ok no big deal one must adapt to the change hopefully in a positive way and with knowledge one can effect change in a positive way when dialing in the new set up. So let throw out those rims and breaking your wrist and get down to it.

In a nut shell what were talking about is Scrub Radius. I now big word however very easy to understand and apply. I say a pic worth a thousand words, so pic it is.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:11 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
See why I posted a pic. Now we can come to grips with it. I fact is you 6" rim has a 3 + 3. This changes the scrub radius leverage of the assembly. This leverage is multiplied by weight transfer on the wheel which we will touch on later however is pertains to previous post.

So how far can we go in scrub radius and be ok. The crappie answer is as far as you can handle. Well that just plain sucks a big one as the additional load cause more stress on parts this load is force and unwanted force here is a bad thing.

You may now be starting to get a picture of this in your head and go ok than zero it is, not so fast oby one. we must consider a few things first. One being tire size and pressure see if the tire is taller see how the red and green can cross over zero. ok then one may be able to change the offset to bring it back into zero or close.
If you got this in your head we can move on. if not back the heck up and get in there.

Now comes in the BYH or Back yard hacker way of thinking. Can we say deep end?
What I the BYH like to do is do a lot of math, which want do you all a lot of good so I will try to explain in my way of thinking so please beware of what you’re about to read.

One must ask our self when we feel this wheel whip or feedback. I would say when the tire sees load or force. More force or load the worse it is. So first we find where we are at with what we run at a static pressure. Now we go back and let the pressure of the tires down to one pound of pressure and re measure to get a radius range. I do this because I want the range to be Negative to zero. Or negative at static never crossing zero at max wheel load. I'm not talking a lot either. If it reaches zero or goes positive in a hard turn well later Skater. One item with negative also is a low or flat tire. It’s drivable. Let one front tie down and one up with a crappy wheel offset see how it handles then. Just see how bad you wrist hurts on the way back to the trailer. So let’s step back and look at what you done with the preload adjustment or a lower ride height.
1: lower ride height
2: softer spring rate for available bottom out poundage (load)
3: change in center of gravity
4: change in Lateral weight transfer
5: change in roll center height
6: change in wheel load during corning and breaking.

With the correct tire and wheel combination all the above is a good thing with a few adjustments.
Depending on the handling you may need to adjust the roll stiffness via a spring adjustment.
You may need to adjust your wheel rate to offset the spring rate.
See not all bad. Just make some knowledgeable adjustments. What you can do very easily is make a wheel rate adjustment and that may be all. As long as your tire and wheel choice is an effective one.
See you can easily move the shock out closer to the wheel and this is like adding spring rate. This would also achieve the above items with major shock adjustments. The only item in the negative would be a lower amount of travel which is no big deal if the above is a trade off. 8” of effective is better than 9” of bad.
I have an example to share. Which I will do later as I have o go for now. Hope I stated all fact correctly if not someone please correct.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:17 pm 
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Location: Rhode Island
adnoh wrote:

You may now be starting to get a picture of this in your head and go ok than zero it is, not so fast oby one. we must consider a few things first. One being tire size and pressure



Just when I think I am starting to make some progress LOL :-)

Thank you for the example of scrub radius. I now understand how a poor choice of rim offset and tire size can affect the scrub radius. The range of the scrub radius is dependent on the tire PSI/compression of tire and should be taken into consideration when selecting a rim and tire combo.

Without a physical tire mounted on a rim, can one can still calculate the required rim size/offset and tire? I just need to know the angel of the red line in the photos posted. This would be tough to figure out otherwise, unless you had several rims and tires on hand. I assume that one would first select a rim offset and then adjust tire size accordingly?

I got a little lost at roll stiffness and wheel rate. All good stuff, keep it coming!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
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Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
your using all trx 450 stuff? if so, and want the correct offset rims..just buy a set of stock trx rims..


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:26 am 
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Location: Rhode Island
fully wrote:
your using all trx 450 stuff? if so, and want the correct offset rims..just buy a set of stock trx rims..


I guess that would be the easiest solution.

4/144
10x5 4+1


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:29 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Good Morning, I though I would take some time this morning and do some drawing to go with the spew I posted.
You may find them helpful if not it may help someone. We all just throw stuff at each other with out or maybe having an understanding of it. The so called easy answer is not always the best. I say a some what educated answer is the best. I say some what due I'm not a professional / expert like Lee and some others however have some what of a working knowledge to share.

So go through the pics and get a grasp of what I am was talking about and how each thing you do effect the numbers. The numbers do not lie.

You will se that the rim offset plays a part not only in handling but wheel rate and spring rate. The pictures walk you through the leverage (s) involved with choice (s). This will also help one put a "crutch" on a plan if need be do to poor design. this is just one step I the whole process. I feel it a good one to know. This should also help one to understand what some of the more knowledgeable site members are talking about.

I and other will comment on pics and future pics as we go so all have a clue or some what understanding of change.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:44 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
I used a right triangle and zero inclination to make it simple to understand to start with. Plus its easy math,
you can see with the KPI at zero / vertical and the tire center line at Vertical that the scrub radius is set by simple distance between center lines. So if you move the tire center line out farther form the KPI the Scrub Radius distance becomes greater. If you look at pic 5 you will see that this also changes the math based on "D". This will have an effect on the wheel rate for you spring rate. The increase in off set increases leverage between A and D so there is more force applied to the lower shock mount than before. This will cause the spring rate to be less than before when applied to wheel rate or resistance at the tire center line to movement due to applied force.

Think of it like a teeter totter , we all have done it at one time. How did the play ground make it to accept different weights. In our case the moved the lower shock mount to help equal out weight to applied force.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:49 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Here is a pic of a spread sheet I use to train the new apprentice at work to bend simple pipe installs. You can see just how simple finding the right angle is. In this case the IC for the example pics.
What your looking for in the spread sheet pic is "B" which is "C" In the drawings


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:33 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Rhode Island
I had some time over the weekend to get the rear shocks installed. Pretty easy installation. I did have one question though. There are 2 washers per shock that are provided in the installation kit. The thicker washer of the 2 is installed on the top or bottom? The rear shocks also have the clip ring at the top, same as front. I have not moved it yet.

Adnoh,
I see in the last photo you posted that if you were to adjust certain measurements, the answer to the formal will change. At this point the easiest measurements for me to change wound either be "A" or "D". The objective is for the answer to equal zer0, correct?

Next week I will take the measurements specified in the last picture you posted. I will have 3 rim/tire combos to try, but only one will be chosen. lol :-)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:49 pm 
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Location: Carson City NV
WARNING!

Do not cycle your suspension with that top shock bolt tight!

You will snap the center shaft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Works shocks are supposed to be left loose on the Ody's top mount so the shock can swing through it's travel.

Here is a link of how to mount the rear shocks.

http://www.worksperformance.com/pdf/ins ... 350ins.pdf

Rand


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:34 pm 
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Location: Rhode Island
OK. Will not cycle suspension. That makes more sense now that I read it again. I'm guessing that is why the kit also includes extra upper mount bushings. Thanks!

Question, If I had the fender bracket that it shows in the picture, would it just be moving freely on the bolt as the shock moves?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:03 pm 
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Location: Carson City NV
CurtisR401 wrote:
OK. Will not cycle suspension. That makes more sense now that I read it again. I'm guessing that is why the kit also includes extra upper mount bushings. Thanks!

Question, If I had the fender bracket that it shows in the picture, would it just be moving freely on the bolt as the shock moves?



Yes it will move. It will not be a tight secure mount.

In my opinion, the works shocks are a poor design and poorly mounted on the Ody. There should be a Heim joint for the top mount, same as the bottom.

This is why after I snapped a center shaft on my Works shocks, I went with the Fox air 2.0's for my Ody. Far superior design with both the shock and the mounts.

Rand


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:57 pm 
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Altered a pic to put thing more in prospective. I do not want to fill your thread up with pics drawings so last one for now.

Sorry forgot to give you some numbers to use for fun according to the drawings
Set #1: A=7.5, B=16, C=60, D=64
Set #2: A=9, B=16, C=60, D=64
Set #3: A=9, B=16, C=60, D=62

These numbers are actually numbers I have used
Spring rate (s) 210, 230, 250
Use linear rate for now until you get a handle on it than go to dull rate and so on for stroke ratios.

Enjoying your build.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:45 pm 
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Location: Rhode Island
Randman,
I suppose that if or when my shocks break I will also consider the Fox air shocks. I'm going to stick it out with these for now. They will hopefully last longer now thanks to your help.

Adnoh,
I like the diagrams. I hope that I am not the only one that finds this information useful. While this may be common knowledge to some, it is not to me. I will use linear rate for now like you have suggested.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:51 am 
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Location: Carson City NV
You're welcome!

Rand


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:12 pm 
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Location: Rhode Island
I finally had a chance to fix my rear shocks and take the measurements. I took the measurements but realized that I messed them up. I'll try again later this week. It is a lot harder to figure out the instance center on a buggy I feel. My suspension doesn't have a right angel vertical plane like the pictures show. I should be taking these measurements with the buggy static, right?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:26 pm 
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It's been a cold winter in my unheated work shop but finally starting to get back on track with this project so I figured I would post an update. I have purchased new rims and tires that match the TRX450R oem specs so I'm done messing around with that. I recently purchased a sandblaster and have been blasting every part that can fit in the thing and painting the parts. Using gloss black por15 for all the black parts. On the hunt for a good gold paint close to the Honda glamis gold. Any recommendations for this? I will be having the frame, bumper, and nerf bars sandblasted and powder coated at a local shop in the near future.

Currently trying wrap up the steering after having some issues with it this past weekend. I have to thank methodical for help with it! I have some new parts on order and if all goes as planned it will be completed this weekend. I will post an update with pictures then and further explain. It is nothing special but will be bump steer free.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:56 pm 
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CurtisR401 wrote:
It's been a cold winter in my unheated work shop but finally starting to get back on track with this project so I figured I would post an update. I have purchased new rims and tires that match the TRX450R oem specs so I'm done messing around with that. I recently purchased a sandblaster and have been blasting every part that can fit in the thing and painting the parts. Using gloss black por15 for all the black parts. On the hunt for a good gold paint close to the Honda glamis gold. Any recommendations for this? I will be having the frame, bumper, and nerf bars sandblasted and powder coated at a local shop in the near future.

Currently trying wrap up the steering after having some issues with it this past weekend. I have to thank methodical for help with it! I have some new parts on order and if all goes as planned it will be completed this weekend. I will post an update with pictures then and further explain. It is nothing special but will be bump steer free.


Here is the paint code info I got:
Pilot frame R-110 Monza Red
Oddy frame R-109 Passion Red
Oddy wheels YR-109-U Glamis Gold

I found some gold spray paint at my local Rona (Lowes) store. It is so close I can't tell is apart from the original. Hope you can get it where you are at. Unfortunately it does not give a good description on the can. It must be made for Rona stores. Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:57 am 
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It is possible that it is not Glamis Gold, based on this link: http://www.vsource.org/VFR-RVF_files/BH ... tCodes.htm
It could be the yr112 super gold metallic.
I say that because the yr109 does not show up as a Honda color, but who knows how accurate the info is.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:17 am 
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Location: Rhode Island
canadian oddy wrote:
It is possible that it is not Glamis Gold, based on this link: http://www.vsource.org/VFR-RVF_files/BH ... tCodes.htm
It could be the yr112 super gold metallic.
I say that because the yr109 does not show up as a Honda color, but who knows how accurate the info is.


Thanks for the info CO. Unfortunately I can't get that exact paint in the states. I'm going to check the local Lowes or Home depot. They do advertise a burnished brass metallic on their websites that looks close. I'll pick up a can and see how close of a match it is.

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