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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
SO today I bit the bullet so to speak. I have so many machines often times I don't know what to do with myself in terms of tuning versus riding. Im either out there tuning carbs all day, or I'll throw in the towel and lose a day, or sometimes say SCREW IT and just run it however its running even if something is still a little ways off.

I'm TIRED of being the tune guy for once who makes changes and mistakes. I often tune on-site for folks for NO COST, and while I love to do that, I'm getting tired of all the jetting guessing, EGT slowness, plug chopping, hack sawing, re-reading, resetting, fuel spilling, jet buying, log books, etc etc etc...


So I've decided to take the PLUNGE for this forum and get an AEM Wideband Uego O2 sensor setup. Its going to be an exhaust sniffing kind where the sensor will hang out at the tailpipe of any machine I'm looking to tune. I'm hoping that any short-circuited air which is a natural 2-stroke phenomenon will be canceled out by time the mixture hits the exhaust exit. Since I plan to move the sensor between probably about a dozen machines I hope this to be the case as welding O2 bungs is not something I want to be doing all the time.

Finally, and Hopefully I'll be able to dial in machines, that's 2-strokes AND 4-strokes, with much less guess work. I have 4 machines in my stables, and my best friend who rides has another 3 machines. Then we have other friends whom I've rebuilt carbs and tuned based on guessing sometimes. Dirtbikes can be a real pain to do a plug-chop on if you gotta remove the gas tank every time you want to pull the plug!

So, here is what I bought:

AEM Wideband Gauge: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N3 ... UTF8&psc=1
Exhaust clamp: https://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Exhaust ... B000ECR8DQ

AFR Targets for my FL350r and my FL400

Idle - 13.5:1
1/4 through 1/2 throttle - 13:1
75% throttle - 12.5:1
Wide open - 12:1

Fast throttle punches - no leaner than 14.5:1 for 1/2 a second

Keeping EGT below 1200F

Plug chop verifications (Mainly AFTER hitting targets at each 1/4 throttle)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:24 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:40 am
Posts: 916
Location: Tallahassee Florida
I run one on my drakart and like it.I also have the AEM boost controller on the drakart. I had a dynojet with lcd display that I liked but did not fit into cockpit. You will wast to seal it up good as its not weather proof.
Have fun
Personally I'd go with weld in bung. Stainless


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
do you think there will be any issues with the 2 stroke oil effecting the sensor? Also I thought you were supposed to use a vacuum pump or something in conjunction with the tail pipe sniffer,, LOL, tail pipe sniffer,, anyway I thought you need to feed the sensor if it is not mounted in the pipe it's self?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
There is a specific distance the sensor needs to be mounted in the exhaust. This is different for different manufactures. It will say in the instructions where it needs to be mounted. My AEM needed to be mounted a different distance than my Dynojet and my factory one was a different measurement too.
I don't know about the two stroke oil but u can always adjust the numbers in ur head it it seems off.
I have mine mounted on my steering wheel which is a pilot steering wheel.

Sounds like u just want it as a portable sensor. Revving it on the trailer will tell u nothing. It's all about the load on the Engine, perfect on the trailer would be lean in real world in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
The part I left out was the o2 sensor works off of heat and not actually the 02 content. That's why probe placement is important. The way u test an o2 sensor is to heat it up with a torch while reading the resistance with a volt meter if I recall correctly.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:06 pm 
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In theory it should work fine hanging out by the exhaust. I've dyne-tuned cars before with dual wide-bands - One up front near the Engine with the gauge in the cockpit, and a dynojet wideband sniffer in the tail-pipe at the same time. The only thing I'd say is the tailpipe sensor is about a 1/2 second slower than the one up front - likely due to the long exhaust stream - otherwise the readings were within .1afr of each other at steady throttles - which is where you tune anything anyways at each 1/4 throttle.

OK, in the AEM instructions it says some stuff about leaded fuel (Which I run VP110 racing fuel which is leaded). It says to put the sensor at least 3 feet back from the Engine when running leaded fuels to improve sensor life. It says in the book, sensor life on un-leaded fuel is 50,000 Kilometers, and with leaded fuel the sensor life is 10,000 kilometers. It also mentions heat issues with turbo charged engines, to run the sensor further back from the turbo as the EGT will burn up the sensor. I believe the sensor's threshold is 1000F per the instructions - and so I would not want to run the sensor too close to the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) where these things can hit 1200+F.

Since I'm going to run as a sniffer, I can easily remove just the sniffer apparatus from the exhaust while I'm idling to/front the parking lot to the good tuning area and to not impact the sensor during warm-up.

As for 2-stroke oil, well - of course that's going to just reduce sensor life even more. The instructions say nothing about 2-strokes and oil and so this is kind of a testing ground. The good thing is the sensors are not that expensive. Second point - I've run WB O2 sensors in Mazda RX7 vehicles - which are quite noxious, and actually can, will, and do burn about a 100:1 2-stroke oil. Ask anyone with a rotary Engine race car who knows anything and you'll probably find they all run some 2-stroke in the gas tanks to keep things healthy. All Mazda RX7 engines were actually equipped with an oil pump actually - which were set up to inject Engine oil into the combustion chamber (Which was a shittty system I won't get into here. I'll just say many converted their RX7s to pre-mix). Again I never had a WB sensor fail in my RX7s. Third point - I intend to only have the setup temporarily installed and only while doing tuning. Therefore I don't think the sensor/gauge is going to die off to quick. I also won't really need to worry about ruining the gauge from water/mud splashing as the tuning will be done only on a straight dirt road, drag strip, or circle flat track. The setup will be removed when I am done tuning.

I've got everything except the exhaust clamp mounted. I'll take a few pictures once I get the clamp and tests done at idle to see how it works.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
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Location: Norco, CA
I'm interested to see how well this works, I've got an LM2 on my busa car, may be worth investing in a sniffed clamp to help dial in the rotax


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:18 pm 
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First tests in the driveway today. The sensor won't pick up a ratio at idle, but as soon as I blip the throttle its absolutely game on. I'd say 2000 rpm and it starts picking up the ratio just fine. I ran out of time otherwise I would have done a 1/4 throttle moving test. This was on my FL350r.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Testing on my 4-stroke dirt bike.

I moved the setup over to my Honda CRF250X dual sport late this afternoon. On the bike the sensor picked up the signal a bit worse. I had to be in 3rd gear or higher at a steady speed and throttle at 1/4 throttle at least. Thing was - in the middle range the meter was jumping to upwards of 15.5:1 to 17:1 between 1/4 and 3/4 throttle at low and mid RPMs. The Engine also seems to have some slight hesitation in this area with throttle pumps - which instantly lean out immensely on the AFR gauge when I whack the throttle. I think I can feel the Engine starving for full in the middle but its hard to tell without the information coming from the AFR gauge. It 'feels' almost perfect but the gauge is telling me it may be lean.

At full throttle it starts at 15:1 and by the time it gets to redline its posting 12:1 AFR (Which is about a half point too rich IMO for a 4-stroke).

I brought the bike back home and let it cool down. About an hour later I decided to pull off the tank to adjust the needle in the carb a notch. I also checked the plug at this time (Because I pulled the tank). Sure enough - the plug is showing a LEAN condition in the middle throttle/rpm range, and has a very dark dark ring at the base where full throttle burns. Its possible I have not enough fuel at ~1/2 throttle, and too much at full throttle. I moved the needle 2 clip positions to fatten the middle range and will try out the result of which tomorrow. The needle has 7x positions in this FCR-MX carb and so I can actually raise the needle one more clip position depending on the change. Otherwise I might consider buying a different needle to get a better dial-in range. If the end results improve in the mid, I may throw a smaller main jet in to see if the top RPM afr leans to about 12.5:1 ish.

I've been riding this bike for awhile now. It runs fantastic. Is very decent on fuel and has been trouble free. I did swap the pilot jet and rebuilt the carb recently, and the bike has a few mods. It runs great all around - street, woods, trails, track.. Its perfect - but I would not want to prevent the bike from not acting better down low. I am hopeful the gauge told me what to do for the tune/carb. As it felt like it ran perfect I would have left well enough alone - but seeing the mid-throttle lean condition was a bit of a wake-up call.

Will see if richening the lower end and leaning the top end improves my 250X's performance. If so, this WB gauge just became an asset for my tunings.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
Score. Lifting the needle on my 250X worked. The Engine loves the extra fuel and the gauge is showing good numbers in the mid-range now. For now I'll keep the main as is - IE on the rich side for safety.


I'm going to move this AF gauge back to one of my FL buggies and will report back further information later on.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:51 pm 
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So far so good with tuning my FL350r. First I marked my throttle at each 1/4 throttle position as to not make any guessing. What I do is roll the throttle on slowly to the point I want to test and then hold it there. Right now I'm working on 1/4 throttle which is affected by the pilot, slide, Needle Jet, and needle diameter the most.

I got the machine nice and hot first. Performing a 1/4 throttle slow roll-on and the AFR gauge starts out immediately at about 14:1, but then while holding steady at 1/4 throttle the mixture drops like a rock down to an overly rich condition, to the point where at 1/4 throttle under basically no speed (~10mph?) nor load the AFR is going to 10.5:1 - and at which point the Engine starts to blubber pretty bad off. So, its running pigity rich. Plug is showing wet as a teenage virgin.

Test was done with:
VM38 Spigot
Pilot: 45
Main: 450
Needle: 6DH8 (Which is a very WIDE needle on the bottom end)
Slide: 2.5 (Mikuni 003.145)
Series 166 Needle Jet: Q6

Dropping the needle into the carb to the #1 clip helped just a tad but the 1/4 throttle circuit is affected by too many other areas. I'm already running one of the fattest series #6 needles and the final test was still showing AFR rich with the needle in the leanest clip - so it is absolutely time to try a leaner slide and/or Needle Jet.

Also I've been noticing this machine is quite fat and sluggish off-idle. It doesn't like to rev up too quickly at all off-idle. Now, same thing happened with my FL400 Pilot, and when I changed the slide to a leaner one on that machine - wow - Now it'll pull wheelies. Hence I've ordered the following to try one at a time or in combination:

Series 166 Needle Jet: Q2
Slide: 3.5 (Mikuni 003.147).

Also my EGT at idle is a bit cold at 400F. The leaner 3.5 slide should help that out a bit.

Both of these pieces will draw a tendency to leaning the mixture between 0 and 1/4 throttle.

I've also got room to increase my pilot jet if that starts showing up lean or whatever.


At the end of the day - I'm really REALLY liking this AFR. What I've been 'feeling' is being absolutely confirmed on the gauge thus far and I cant wait to see how well my machines run once properly tuned up.

Buy one!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:04 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Found some good info so that the rest of us know what you are shooting for and why: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/innovat ... tio-meter/
It's not the meter you got, but it's the info and what happens that I was interested in when jetting is off.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
Yup. The Innovate stuff is maybe a little nicer but a little more money than the AEM I bought. I think the Innovate may even measure Engine RPM. No matter though. This AEM is a good gauge, for temporary purposes anyway, and it’s working.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Pictures


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
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Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I am just curious but how the hell do you know your hold exactly 1/4 throttle ??
What are you using to gauge each throttle position ??
If it is mechanical of some kind post pics please.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
Its not that complex. What I did was take a fine sharpie marker and I put some marks on the thumb throttle right where it connects to the shaft part. I marked 0-throttle first (Cable taught but not lifting the carb slide), and then full throttle Both those were easy to find. Then I just marked 1/2 throttle directly in-between the 0 and full mark, and 1/4 and 3/4 throttle in between those marks. I used different color sharpie markers. Nothing scientific. I just be sure that the throttle position I am testing - I'm able to glance DIRECTLY at the mark for which position I want. Its probably not 100% accurate because the ~4 marks are very close to each other - but its close enough. Not tuning Nascar here lol. I'll take a pic and post later.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:03 am 
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Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
Are you tuning driving on flat asphalt, dirt, or do you have some incline you tune on?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:14 am 
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Right now I'm tuning on flat offroad. Once I get it close I'll run the same on some hills and stuff. I might go ahead and ride around Durhamtown for 30 minutes with the sensor around some real offroad stuff but for now there is no way in heck this carb should be putting so much fuel in my Engine. I'm basically starting from an un-tested carb and its soo far off. Once I get the 3.5 throttle slide and Q2 Needle Jet I'll get back to this.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7699
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I am betting you gota come down at least 100 points on that main jet.
It's wayyyy to fat. I bet around 340 or less ---------- 300 even.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:39 pm 
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Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
this is pretty interesting, I know my Oddy is not jetted properly, fat on the bottom end and lean on the top end. this would make tuning much easier


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:52 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee Florida
Spend the extra $$ and get one with data logging capabilities. After a run hook it up to u r computer and plays back you're air fuel ratio just as u ran it while showing u the rpms. My AEM has this feature. My dynojet would log throttle position as well but have to have a throttle position sensor for that function.
This is just a suggestion for the next guy.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:12 pm 
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I don't think it will last long. Too much soot. Wait until its up to running temps may help. I is not about heat or you would have to put them all at the same point to the same Engine to get the results. I use a wideband to tune engines but will not use it on a 2 stroke unless I'm willing to toss the o2 out after each use. it may last a while but tuning engines to the edge of limits you would never use a fouled up o2. The readings would be off. This is all from what I have been taught from reading the MFG wideband system notes. I'm not guessing at anything.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:47 am 
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Of course I'm not going to use this tool solely for changing setups. I'm going to chop and read plugs, watch EGT, AND observe the WB. So far I've got to say that its a valid tool for tuning. my FL350 and FL400.

Right now I'm tuning just off idle and 1/4 throttle

Found both machines were about full point off (Pilot was too rich at 12:1, and FL350 was too lean at 13.7:1). The funny thing was that actually both machines felt relatively the same at 1/4 throttle but both were inversely off

FL350 was reaching 1250F on the EGT needs a larger Needle Jet, leaner pilot jet (Screw is at 3.5 turns out and stalls on a throttle wack) and possibly a richer slide.
FL400 literally started pulling wheelies after I dropped the pilot from 50 to 45 with 1.5 turns on the screw. I'm ready to start tuning 1/2 throttle on my pilot.

Re-read my comment on Mazda RX7 and WB lifespan. I had my last WB in my turbo RX7 installed and running 100:1 premix for 20k miles and it still matched what was read from a second gauge on the dyno.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:12 am 
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As for soot buildup - to be honest I have not seen much soot on the sensor itself/yet. I think the exhaust hanger is helping to limit soot buildup but yes only time will tell. I might, say, replace the sensor after my machines are tuned up, and run a new sensor just once quickly to verify the old sensor where I tuned against didn't go out of spec during the tune phase.

Quickly searching, replacement Bosch/AEM sensors are only $70.


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