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 Post subject: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Drove to NY and picked this gold beast up awhile ago...
I have plans to make it into something special...In my eyes anyway...


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Here is some pics of the strip and paint...
lots o sanding...
I know black is crazy but... I was going red and my wife said try the black and well since she is a great support in any of my projects here it is in black
Notice the burns in the drive in pic 4... lots o rubber

update Oct 2012 to replace pictures after the hack.. so the above may be out of sequence


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
My good friend Bob and I are underway making changes

well this is where we started... oil injection will be used... it is in the plan anyway... and the stock driven has been split and massaged to except the larger/wider sled belt...


we were moving it (Engine) forward, backward, up and down... looking at it for a long time... where it lands will make the rest of the build possible or an argh situation...
we wanted to keep the twin sled carbs and the stock clutch and belt and this meant it needed to be on the high side and forward more that we liked at first...to ensure we had the trans clearance we needed
and the belt would have proper slack/deflection
yes we did cut the side tube on the Pilot frame see pic 1... need the room to work on
the mag side without pulling the Engine
notice pic 1the sled Y pipe is heating my back... no good...


Pic 2
why noticed the Y pipe had a slight up turn to it and so we unbolted it and flipped it over...
then cut the Y and this is what you see here... we did not shorten the Y but did add some material

Pic 3
We just said screw it and ran the Pipe out the right side of the frame and we will forget about the plastics... it will be much better to use the stock pipe and it will act like a side nerf...alittle











OK so the side pipe os a joke we were getting tired and acting like fools...you should have seen the Pilot fuel trailer we made LOL no room for the fuel cell... more on the pipe and fuel cell later


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
pic 1
welded up Y... as you guys that have done fab work in the past know... there is so much trial and error...
the Y is not pretty but it is so soild... no leaks and it will clean up well...
notice the pipe is tied into the Y pipe bolt... the pipe moves with the Engine...
also you can see in this pic (1) and (2) that we sectioned the pipe (expansion chamber) and turned it many times in different directions.. should the pipe come out the stock side or the other...
should we run it down or up... the pipes shape and length remain unchanged except for the Y... we just massaged the direction some


Pic 2
after reading about other builds... Hoser's 440 install comes strongly to mind I wanted to keep this a bolt in Engine and we used the stock mounts... the sled's stock mounts are used and we tied into them... the stock mounts are rubber mounted at four points and this will dampen vibs a bit... the stock sled mounts are this thin, cheap,
SH*t metal and the mounts we made are way over kill....LOL
The Pilot Engine was tied tight to the trans as far as we could see and we did the same..
The sled Engine moves with the trans completely.... we will only learn our mistakes after it is up and moving...
as noted above the pipe is tied into the Y pipe/Engine... the Engine has slots in the mounts
in case we need to adjust it (I am sure we will need to fine tune it) and the Pipe being mounted to the Engine will allow this... the rest of the pipe (silencer) will be mounted via pull spring


Pic 3
we had to change the cage some... the cross bar that held the elec. and the top harness bolts was/would have come into contact with the head if it was left stock...
the center portion was cut out first and then we cut the shorter supports...
we then moved the whole unit up after down sizing the center section that we first removed... the cage as everyone knows tappers in at the top and just a cut and hike would not work...


pic 4
the rear of the Engine... the carbs are up over the trans and notice the relation of the seat with the Engine... a seat tie in to be added for seat back support... oh and yea there will be a much needed piece of aluminum to keep me from having hot cross buns... the stock carbs are gone and I have TM 38s MM on order with button choke.. one less thing to tie into the front of kart... ie choke cable...


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
pic 1

the pipe has the the look a if it was made for this setup... I hope it runs... time will tell...
can you say holy hot seat...


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
You have been a busy beaver...have fun! :-) I would install some kind of heat shield or your going to melt some plastic! From what I have read, the exhaust pipes are "tuned" and changing shape, length, turns, etc it can have major effects on performance...good n bad. Hopefully you get lucky, but don't have much choice squeezing that in there. I am going to squeeze an AC 600EFI in one of my 350s and the exhaust is what is going to be the pain in my arse. Keep posting updates!

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:44 am
Posts: 87
Location: Dayton Ohio
Did this come from unused part of Gold Member or what??? Sorry, when I saw it in the first pic I thought Austin Powers.
Whatever in world would cause someone to do something like that??
The black is way beter. are you going to keep the plastic red?
The pipe should keep you warm on the long winter rides... The trailside belt change looks like a real job though.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Thx for the replies
yes a shield will be installed the old backside will not take that kind of heat... The drive belt is quite quick though just remove the Y bolt and the pull springs allow enough room to change it out...
The plastics were gold as well prior to the great peel off.. but the old owner did the paint and peel later.. and if you can believe it the Pilot Gold paint was applied with the machine intact ie all assembled.. it must have taken a week to tape it off...


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
more info
is there a problem with the mounting of the regulator, CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) and coil this close together?
The coil makes me nervous... I am not sure why but...
The Pilot wheel will be used for the brakes and throttle only...
the exhaust is from the KX 500 it is a turbine core and it just about straight through except for the fins and spark arrestor... (Smokey the Bear would be proud)

The button is push start
and the others are ign. fan. lights and an extra...
I took the thermo out of the Engine and ran the coolant into and out of the rad... which is unlike the sled which bypassed the eng when cold.. this is what I believe to be the case anyway.... the sled book I have really stinks...

Still need to fab the throttle as the thumb will be pushing/pulling the two carbs and the oil pump lever now.... I need mechanical advantage...

the oil tank needs to be mounted up... where to put it???

the frame that was cut by the right rear a arm needs to be massaged as well

I could not resist and with the carbs off I poured some mix down the plug holes and she fired right up... which was awesome because the harness (wire) was just a nightmare to look at... the sled had power everything from heated thumb throttle to oil and gas sensors and a reverse chime buttton.... it also had a key cut off a kill switch and a lanyard hookup... so lots of fun...
The good news... I think... Is that I was able to fab up an oil tank with the three needed lines from an old kids 50cc quad gas tank...

Regards


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Oh yeah and the plan is to have the plastics black as well... I am thinking of using
Herculiner for the inside of the tub...
anyone with exp with this stuff on plastic?


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 2243
I think it will look great black. I have tried the rattle can fusion paint(made to bond to plastics) on 350 plastic before...not worth a crap. Looks good until the plastic flexes.

That rubber bed liner stuff in th foot tub area is a great idea, let us know how it holds up. I used it in my jon boat floor but didnt last long til it was peeling off.

gary


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
any input re: the coil reg and rectifier being so close???
I don't want any issues that is for sure...


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 1037
Location: CT
You shouldn't have any issues with the coil interfering with the CDI (Capacitor Discharge Ignition) as far as electrical RFI noise is concerned. I would suggest a heat shield for the belt. The belt should not get over 140-160 degrees. Running the pipe that close to the clutch will block off cooling air and increase the belt temp creating a short belt life and a tow back to the truck. I have a kx 500 usfs approved arrestor on the briggs car and used it on the pilot with the 500 sled motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). In stock form, it will not work well. It is too restrictive for a twin cylinder. I had all types of heat issues and low power when hot issues with a stock type (fmf) kx500 silencer on mine. Since those are rebuildable, I opened it up and removed all the guts. Took a piece of exhaust pipe the same diameter as the outlet of the expansion pipe. Cut the new exhaust pipe to fit in the silencer can. Drill a million holes in it. A couple inches from the outlet, cut the pipe, weld in a piece of stainless mesh that is coned, reweld the previously cut off section of pipe back on. Wrap the pipe with fiberglass packing and fit it back into the cansiter. You will have to cut the old "tailpipe" section off the original silencer end and cut it so the new exhaust pipe end will fit through. Weld the new tip to the plate and install. The wire mesh will pass the metal rod into the silencer test to check for the arrestor, at least it has for me. And the can is stamped with the usfs approval. This has been working good for the past several years on my 700. I guess we will have to see what is better in the woods - my 500 or your 583. Polaris or Rotax. Found a bunch of trails at oct mtn that will be a lot of fun for the pilots. Let me know when your ready.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:20 pm
Posts: 1718
Location: saskatoon, sk, canada
i have all my plastics done in line x and seems o be hold up really well..it on a 350 though and it black as well


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Line X eh well I will look into that too... my buddy tells me he sprays his plastic with this stuff called Bull Dog prior to paint and he never gets cracks when it bends...
So now I am working on the throttle setup and my right thumb cannot pull the two carbs and the oil pump lever....
The throw/cable pull on the Rotax setup is approc 1 1/2 inch and the Pilot cable throw is not much more... maybe 1/2 more that Rotax... my initial plan was to have a "pry bar setup".. piece of stock with shoulder bolt attachment offset with the Rotax cable on the short end and the Pilot cable on the long side... ie 6 inch flat stock with 2 inch side Rotax cable and the Pilot take the 4 inch side... this would give me the leverage I need.... the problem is at the Pilot 4 inch side I don't have the cable throw/travle to allow the Rotax cable to be in the fully opened position... I need more cable travel on the Pilot end...
Anyone with ideas maybe cam setup or ..... I could always go to a foot throttle and strap setup so my foot wont bounce of the gas but this is an idea I do not even come close to desiring... oh and yeah I did try the oil lever disconnect to see if it made a difference and no noticeable loss of cable pulling pressure noticed.. so it it the carb springs for the greatest part...
I got the 582 running last night on stands and it idles and shifts very good.. the dual TM 38s do bring it to life for sure... gets right on the pipe...I do believe that KingKX is right and I will need to modify the FMF can to allow it to breath... I want to drive it but without a soild throttle it just is not safe... I also changed out the old fan setup it was just too small and lacked a shroud... pics to follow but I am racking my brain over this throttle setup... Regards


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 1037
Location: CT
You can cut a coil or two out of the springs for the slide return in the carb, convert to a single carb, or take all the throttle cables out and saturate the crap out of them with the slipperiest lube you can find. I am doing twin 34's on my pilot with out a problem once I lubed the snot out of them. My next idea was going to try and add more leverage to the throttle lever itself, but the lube took care of my issue.
The foot throttle is not that bad to ride with - most stadium lites use a foot throttle. I think it looks cheesy on a pilot though and it is the easy way out.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3760
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
How tight are your cable radius bends?
Straighten/move them out while activating the throttle cable to see if it's binding any.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
I used a single watercraft carb and manifold the throttle pull is easier than a stock Pilot carb I had to add an extra spring so it pulls harder worse comes to worse buy a watercraft manifold and dual carbs?

Search for a seadoo carb and or manifold the 580 or 587 will bolt right on, the carbs with the round pump are older you want the ones with the square pump or the Super BN

Search around you can find the carb/manifold combo dirt cheap

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=seadoo ... m270.l1313

Careful what you lube cables with they will stick when its 30 degrees out lube that makes it easy to pull today will turn to grease at 30 degrees.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
another pic
still a question of throttle hookup???? I have not given up but I want to drive this beast
badly... it sounds great and the TM 38s provide lots of gas...
I also changed the fan to the Pilot fan and shroud...It is a work in progress


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pilot air filter.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
ok so I get the rotax running and with the air screw all the way in it just revs up to 5500 rpm approx without opening the slides at all.. and when i block the air filters it comes right down...
Do I need bigger or smaller pilot jets? Is it something different... argh i am so close
Regards


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 1037
Location: CT
Are these the carbs that were originally with this Engine? If so, then I would check for an air leak causing the lean condition.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
they are new
the old round side vms were all worn and in need of rebuild well at least new slides so I went with dual flat side TM 38s that come jetted roughly for a 250 application... but because they are flat I figured I would ask prior to going nuts with jets..
another thing it does which I am almost positive it a lean condition is after rev-n it it takes along time to settle back down... and again settled down is only to the 4400 rpm mark
thx


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
go oddy wrote:
they are new
the old round side vms were all worn and in need of rebuild so I went with dual flat side TM 38s that come jetted roughly for a 250 application... but because they are flat I figured I would ask prior to going nuts with jets..
another thing it does which I am almost positive it a lean condition is after rev-n it it takes along time to settle back down... and again settled down is only to the 4400 rpm mark
thx



Start out by making sure the idle screws are 100% backed off then be 100% sure the carb slides both are resting on the body of the carb and the throttle cable or cables is holding the slides up once this is done and your 100% sure they are not the cause of your high idle start looking for a air leak or going BIGGER on the pilot jets in the carb.


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:27 pm
Posts: 99
So, just an off the top of the head reply here but, if each carb was jetted for a 250: 250 X 2= 500cc - 583cc Rotax = -83cc. The twin TM 38's are probably up to the air flow but probably jetted to lean since they were setup for a 250?


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 Post subject: Re: Rotax 582
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
good point flip...
I will look into and from what I can see I do not have an air leak...
regards


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