Hello everyone,

Was nice to find a community for the machines as I quite simply didn't know a community would still exist.

I picked up a Pilot that was used for racing back in 1990 and really hasn't been used much since. It is built relatively well by the standards of those days. It kind of runs like garbage at the moment (probably a clogged main or slipped needle) but overall it's a decent machine. Compression is good, front end needs an alignment (previous owner said it had been boxed and just needs to be adjusted, we will see).

TO make it race ready at the time they stripped off everything that was any extra weight. They removed the pull start mechanism, the fan, the parking break, fan shroud, lights, etc etc etc, probably lost at least 10 lbs of stuff, maybe more.

They remounted the radiator up behind the driver's net for air flow and I haven't had any overheating issues, including testing max speed at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) for a bit.

Question: How necessary is the fan on these things normally? The connector is still there, just hanging, and the sensors are in the radiator where they belong (Although I do not know if they function).


Here is what I have been able to verify has been done to it (There may be more I haven't figured out):

Fox adjustable shocks front and rear
Port job (looks just too clean to be the factory casting). Possibly enlarged ports as well. No polish thank god, I think by 1990 we had moved beyond that.
Powerbloc clutch (may be able to squeak out better performance with adjustment, but I have no clue how yet)
Shaved head (it looks like)
Custom pipe with a spark arrestor (California is on fire enough thank you)
Some type of over bore kit (440?)
39MM Keihin PWK carb (needs throttle cable, on order)
custom intake manifold it looks like
Air box snorkel is not stock (Could be a mod, could be just because?)
Strange reed cage, doesn't look stock
Nerf bars

Could be things on the bottom end, but I haven't dug that deep


Mods I've done:
Rev limiter delete (again). It was done originally but the joint failed and it seems to be working again

I am a light rider, and so far I've clocked at 64MPH wide open and I think I've got a bit more if I can get it running perfect.

Question A lot of the links on the parts pages etc are broken (of course, these things are decades old). Is there a good source of parts everyone here trusts or is it all eBay and the for sale section here?
Question Is anyone still making the custom front suspension to add more travel? This thing is FaF wide open on the sand, but it's like jumping a brick. The suspension is probably better than stock but I'd like to step it up a notch.

Thank you to all of you for posting here, I've spent HOURS reading through so many posts I am getting confused :)

Welcome to the site.
Unfortunately the site is now very slow because many members just got old and have left.
Still a few pilot guys that do show up and comment. You have to be patient on this site for answers.
I own 3 FL350's so basically I'm not a Pilot expert. However I will try to point you in the right direction if I can. Lets take these one at a time:
1) Parts: This one is probably the most important for you right now. Call this guy Derek Leland Tisinger Please call at 661-747-5796 he is located in Kernell, CA.
Apparently he is a great guy to deal with and has FN everything -- apparently.
Of special note here is that recently guys have been finding it tough to find the double lip seal for the crank. It separates the counter balancer oil from the crankcase. There is a thread on it. Here is the thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20399&start=25
2) The rad fan: I have liquid cooled all three of my oddys. I run no fan. However I use a rad from a honda civic car. It's huge compared to the Pilot rad. So not sure what to tell you. My guess is you don't need it if you don't run in the dunes. Low speed = Low air flow. I think you understand.
3) Below I will attach some pdf files with info for you. Also you can get a free pdf manual here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B851Fd ... kU1QQ/view
CO

Also note that we like pictures here .
When ever you select the comments box, just below it is a line that says "file name" and a "Browse" button. Click that button and select your file or picture. When it has loaded you hit the "Add the file" button. When everything is said and done you hit the "Submit" button.
CO

How to use the "search" button (top of screen) properly:
In the search box type ONE word ONLY and hit enter. If you don't you will get to many hits.
When the list of threads comes up there will be another search box there on the right.
In that box type ONE word ONLY. Keep doing this as many times as you want until you have narrowed it down. Some common words will be ignored like "Engine" "Honda" etc.
Also at the very bottom of any thread you read will be an area where there a similar threads to the one you are reading. You can click on them to read.
CO

Thanks for the answers! Appreciate it. This thing has been around and waiting a while to be fixed so all good, it can wait a bit longer for people to chime in.

As for the manual, I have the PDF I got free online and I can print etc so all good, but thanks for the link as well. Nice to have a backup location.

I'll get pictures in the next day or two and post them. It's still sitting in the back of my truck from doing the top speed test.

I'll look to get in touch with the man that has everything and see what I can pick up. I'd like to put the pull starter back on as a just in case. Will probably re-add the fan. Being I am quite a bit smaller than the original rider adding the weight won't have any significant meaning I don't think.

There is a lot to go through on this thing I have a feeling.

I'll be the first to tell you; you need a working fan. Mine runs about 40% of the time. The good is since you moved the radiator and the wires/thermoswitch is in-tact, all you need is a shrouded fan which will fit the the back of the radiator. Ebay generics work OK, or SPAL brand if you want one a little more decent. Just measure, buy, and mount.

A $5 test light will tell you quick if the wiring is working.

I moved on to the Viton style crank seal from Ebay by the seller named JunkBoy. So far I give it a thumbs up. It sealed better than the SKF brand that came out - in fact I had to change my pilot jet 1/2 point.

I can give you help on jetting. Whats it doing? Is the idle stop screw on the carb all the way in? Does the Engine stall when flat idling for long sometimes?

If it were mine I'd leave the pull start out as parts are hard to locate possibly. Otherwise, how is the side cover sealed?

Are there any engravings on the Engine or head? Billet head?

Is there a spacer between the bottom end and cylinder? Next to the PowerBlock clutch, is there anything clearanced on the cylinder, indicating the PB clutch was running possibly too close to the cylinder? (This is possibly a CR500 jug indication)

Two Engine builders are, ATV Racing and CW. CW Racing Engines still exists

ATV Racing used to do a lot of CR500 jug conversions. Their conversions I think needed a spacer between the bottom end and jug. Also the jug mounts needed to be re-located in order to fit. To me this would be a frankenstein setup. They worked and made great power but IMO the setup was not the most reliable long term - the mounting of the jug to the base became the problem. On the plus, the CR500 jug will always out-perform the FL400 jug using an actual CR500 cylinder.

CW racing engines IMO does better practice of boring, re-sleaving, rebuilding. CW has 440 pistons for the stock jug/sleave, and CR500 options as well. For CR500 they have a custom LA Sleeve bored out and pressed into the FL400 jug which gets you started at 89mm bore, and I think the cylinder also gets a spacer. IMO CW has better options than the ATV Racing option, but the difference is the CR500 actual jug has much larger transfer ports to start.

What kind of Fox shocks are on the front?? Whats the spring<s> rate? Single or dual? AFAIK Fox didn't really make anything much suitable for the FL400 in stock lift form but I could be wrong. Fox shocks are tunable so maybe you can make it handle better.

What type of race terrain was this machine set up for? Desert, flat track, mx, trail?

I would give the carb a good cleaning if you think it is an issue before doing anymore riding or you may be putting in a new top end.
surprised CO didn't mention AVGAS, I am another advocate, use some good high octane gas, Avgas is a cheap alternative to race fuel, it is around 100-105 octane, I don't think they use any methanol and the quality is dependable.
Fan yes, it may not be on all the time but you want it when it is needed, you mention California and sand, I'm in Socal and dune at Glamis a lot, nothing will heat up an Engine like running up a tall slip face, also out in the dunes it is not unusual to get a bit of a breeze to to call it mildly, let's say 25 mph, going into the breeze at 25 mph no problem now you have a 50 mph air speed to cool, but if you go out you'll need to come back, now you have zero airflow.
congrats on your purchase, yes please add pics.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I'll try to address each one:



I'll have to look for a fan, you have me convinced. I'll measure the current radiator (which I think is stock).

Question Is there a generic fan that you folks recommend for the stock setup?

As for the jetting issue, it is blubbering around mid-throttle. It idles fine. It will die after a couple of minutes idling which is normally how I setup all my two strokes in past (i've owned dozens of motorcycles). I will have to pull the carb off and go from there.

As for the pull-start, there is no cover or anything, it's just open. They took the cover and the mechanism off. I just wanted to have the pull start as a back-up.




Doing a little bit of cleaning etc reveals it's a CW Racing Engines Engine, and I talked to Chris today. Hell of a guy. He and I chewed a lot of the same dirt racing back in the day and he is relatively close to me. I'm trying to research the original owner's name to find out what was done to it instead of guessing. I don't think its a CR500 jug, I think it's a custom over bore.

There is in fact what looks to be a 1mm spacer.

The PB clutch looks fine. Probably just needs some adjustment.



The fox shocks are single. I have no idea on spring rate. As for terrain, I have no idea, but I have a feeling it was set for flat track because it is like riding around on an anchor. It just doesn't absorb anything it feels like. The ground clearance is also something I want to see if I can help along a bit. Thus my question about a long travel setup.



Agreed Kuma, the carb definitely needs to be cleaned. I am considering doing a top end as the compression should be closer to 150 and I'm at 130.

As for the gas, octane is the devil IMHO as it robs you of power, but you're right if we need anti-ping for these engines. I don't hear it pinging on quality 91 octane in there now, but it might be good to boost it a few points.

A fan is a definite. You guys have me absolutely convinced. Glamis and Pismo are destinations so I want to be ready.


Thanks for all the replies, I'll get pics today.

ooooooooooooooh

CO

Here are a few of pictures. Used but not used up.

A couple more:

Nice machine.
Your drive belt is shot.
CO

I don't disagree, but how can you tell?

I did this post recently: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20437
CO

I just want to make a few more comments here.
Please don't take anything I say as an "attack". I'm an old geezer now (60) and it's just how I am.

You said: "I am a light rider, and so far I've clocked at 64MPH wide open and I think I've got a bit more if I can get it running perfect"
I really hope you don't blow this thing up but from what I'm reading here I see a potential Poofkaboom.
Just by the way you write it appears you're not a moron. You appear to be mechanically inclined and seem to have two stroke knowledge. However that comment above tells me you are horny about your new machine and want to go for a spin.

There are a few things that are critical to any of these Honda buggies.
#1 on the list is fuel octane. It's a hotly contested subject on this site. There are endless threads on exploded engines. I'm a firm believer in AVGAS. I will leave it at that.
#2 Fuel flow. This has got to be the number one reason for Engine melt downs in my opinion. Before you even start this machine again you better do a fuel flow test on your pump. If you don't get "approx" 4.5 oz in 10 sec fuel flow you're ded. If you're getting 3 oz or less it's gona be over real soon.
#3 If your fuel flow is not meeting the required flow check your fuel tank. It might be rusted up inside and the pick up tubes are all corroded up. Also check the fuel filter.
#4 Have you done an air leak down test ?? I bet you haven't.

Yes I know we are talking about the Honda Pilot but bear with me.
Think about this for a moment: Honda made the FL350 for only one year. They put an air cooled Engine behind a seat. What moron at the factory thought this was a good idea?? They gave up after only one year of production and recalls. It blew up because of poor octane fuel and the fresh intake charge got hot even before it entered the combustion chamber and detonated. They waited four years and built the Pilot -- a LIQUID cooled 400cc. Hummm.
Now lets talk about your machine. You just bought this thing and went crazy going for top speed runs probably before you checked the above. I may be wrong on that though. Your machine also does not have a fan -- we just talked about a hot Engine right ??
You also have a carb issue yet you have gone crazy and went for top speed runs. Not good.

When ever you buy a machine you have to tear it apart BEFORE you even start it again.
CO

Good stuff. I have a new belt on order.

No worries, I appreciate opinions. I come from a hard background. I don't "wear my ass on my shoulders" as they say in the south.

I ride all my machines hard, some blow, most don't. Usually I can fix them. From the first 76' Elsinore I blew up drag racing in Clear Lake to the WR250 (Old 2-stroke Yamaha) that was clocked at 110 across the desert, yep that one blew too. I do like to push my machines to their limit at least once or twice just to see what it can do, and it has cost me. Your comments are well taken, you have a point.

#1. Octane certainly is a concern and I share your sentiment. I have a relatively tuned ear, but not perfect. Normally I can hear the ping of low octane fuel, but this thing is so dang loud I could be missing something. Back in the day when 92 and 93 octane were normal, and there was less ethanol in the gasoline, it wasn't as much of a concern, but ethanol in the gas is the death of these things sometimes. Leaded race fuel is much nicer but it mucks up fuel pumps and other things but on simple old motors it's a god send.

#2. I did check the fuel flow because I thought that's why it might be falling over. I did not measure it per Oz however which I will go do now that you shared a target (thanks!). It seemed to have good flow and I would have guessed I had ~5oz in 10 seconds but to be honest I can't be sure. It didn't seem anemic.

#3. Fuel tank is good. Fuel lines are good. Strong flow. Already checked.

#4. Leak down test done and passed. Held just fine. I did not do like a 3 hour test or anything. Just 5 minutes, but it came out ok, and I've been doing it this way for a while and haven't had any surprises, but I am sure there are better ways and open to suggestions.


Being where the radiator is mounted, there was plenty of air flow for the short time I clocked it. I was not overly concerned. But, to your point, slow going around in the desert or high load at slow speeds up hills or in mud could certainly cause a problem, thus why I asked for a suggestion of a generic fan to put on. I am convinced on the fan.

Overall you're right, the prudent/conservative move would be to tear into it completely before going all out, but like a kid in a candy shop, I went kind of nuts and loved it.

Well it appears I stand corrected.
I under estimated my opponent here.

I would like to share another very important piece of information.
It's long winded but please do not skip over. Read it all please.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15887&hilit=crsah
CO

Not opponents! Men of a kind more like.

I read the entire thing, and I have been in some gnarly wrecks (cars, motorcycles and airplanes), and after much practice I learned to just go with it, but I have never been as wrecked as you were. Glad you're still with us.

You mentioned That is when you know it's bad, when there is blood in your helmet.

You made a great point in the thread about the ability to see the road ahead. I did notice I was sitting really low, almost go-kart low.

Question: I was wondering if you have any suggestions on suspension seats? Something that might sit up for added visibility?

Also I do have plans to replace the harness. I don't like it much and I'm already looking at netting options as I don't like how open it is. I was more worried about branches and stuff poking in, never really thought about hitting my head on the ground.

Ground clearance is an issue on these things in my opinion and I'm hoping to find some good suggestions on how to raise it. Slightly larger tires, longer shocks, long travel suspension kit of some kind. Open to suggestions. I am currently reading through threads around these things but there doesn't seem to be consensus.

Lets take this one at a time:
1) Suspension seat: I actually tried to build one using an air bag. I gave up. One of my machines has an aftermarket racing seat. I put this seat in the death machine (the one you saw in that crash after I rebuilt it). I do not like this seat. It's higher than the stock seat and it feels like the steering wheel is located near my balls. My hands feel low. The stock seat is just a fiberglass shell with tubing. NO softness for your back there. You have to make the call on that.
2) Harness: These things are old now and if you value your life in a crash you better replace it.
3) Ground clearance: In my opinion you are stuck with stock. There was a guy up here in Canada that made kits for these to be long travel. However Manny no longer builds them as of just recently so you're sht out of luck on that. You may find something online. He built many kits.
4) Netting (worried about branches): Not gona help you. It might stop your head from hitting the ground though. Here is my of my brothers crashes: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16961&hilit=another+crash+brother
CO

What seat did you get that fit? I am wondering if I can shave it to make the height correct and not have the steering wheel in my lap but still take advantage of more comfort?

Any recommendations on a harness? What did you replace yours with?

As for the ground clearance seems like I'll be fabricating something or simply trying to soften things up a bit and then just hope for the best.

Looks like you have clickers on the Fox shocks. Those are progressive springs similar to dual rate.

Set your SAG (Front and Rear) to about 20% with driver weight (Balast) 70/30% - Seat/footwell.

(Front and Rear) If its riding rough and not reacting much to bumps, decrease compression

(Front and Rear) If after several fast bumps it bottoms out, decrease rebound in the front.

(Rear) If the machine seems to buck when releasing off of jumps/rotating front-downward, increase rear rebound hardness.


So, CW has some 83 & 84mm pistons for their 440cc kit, but my understanding is neither of those require a spacer as they are just over-cast sizes from Wiseco.... A CR500 piston (AKA FL500 sleave/conversion) needs a spacer because the CR500 piston is slightly taller than the FL400/440 pistons - hence the spacer.

If it were me, I'd first Measure squish. Then drain the coolant and pull the head off. Measure bore diameter. Measure piston/wall clearance. Prepare to buy a new head gasket (Which will likely need to be bored to the current 84~90mm size.

Seat: It's a procar seat. Not sure what model #. You can get them at Summit racing. The bad part is that I had to butcher it to get it to fit. Pics attached below. You can also see the height difference.
Harness: I have 3" race belts on all my machines. A G Force harness in my machine. A pro series in my brothers and a RaceQuip belt in the death machine. In my opinion the belts that bugeye59 has on his machine in Australia is the way to go. They are a Teamtech wide racing belt. Far superior to the junk I got now but they're expensive. If I do ever replace my belts I would consider the Teamtech. There is a picture of it on the last page of the thread I posted of my crash that broke my back.

I also noticed something on the pic you posted. On the pic that shows you standing on the tailgate of your truck next to the machine it's obvious you are a small guy like me. The Pilot frame is about your balls height and your legs are thin. Therefore you are about 5'5" tall and about 130 lbs. Unless you have real broad shoulders you will find the belts trying to slip off your shoulder. You need a way (strap) to hold the harness together at your chest bone or get those belts that bugeye59 has.
CO