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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 pm
Posts: 2245
Location: Chandler, AZ
You don't need to cut the stock axle to get the outer cv off, it is held on with a snap ring they make a tool that hits right on the iner star one good whack will pop it off, we made our own you can see it in our write up.


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4072


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
ATV Racing had a huge problem with their axles breaking we finially sent a ATV Racing axle to Marv at 4x4 tuff he made axles back in the FL250 racing days that never broke, Marv had many sets of axles made nobody has yet to break one.

Cowboy use to break a ATVR axle almost every trip out with his Pilot he bought 2 sets of Marv's axles and never broke one fact is he sold his spare set on evilbay after a few years and not braking an axle it was clear they were not going to brake.

You don't need to go caveman on the OEM axles the method you were given was by someone who is clueless they make a tool to remove the CV think of the same tool used to install a oil pickup tube on a small block Chevy oil pump, same idea when Rockford Driveline rebuilt my axles they used this tool to remove my outer CV's worked perfectly. Basically your hammering the inner part of the CV that's on the axle off the end of the axle 99 times out of 100 the ring on the end of the axle will collapse fall into the groove like a ring on a piston then the CV slides off the end of the axle no need to butcher up a discontinued OEM part that someone can use in the future. :-)

Any axle shop that rebuilds CV assemblies should have this tool in stock and in their shop.

There is zero reason a fox cant be made to work as well or better as any way overpriced ATV shock on the market.

Been telling that to people for years they wont listen too many are sold on the lies distributed by the sellers and MFG's then you have the morons on the internet that hype everything beyond belief since they own a set, they disappear when you ask them how many gallons of 2 stroke oil they have run through their Pilots since they installed the shocks. Too many want to buy a name not just a product that will do the same thing for thousands less others are bling homos living the bling dream, God bless them the bling industry is a multi billion dollar industry.

My 800.00 set of 4 FOX AIR shox has been working perfectly since 2000 and I have burned over 16 gallons of 2 stroke at 32:1 since they were installed. Many things you can do with these shocks http://pilotodyssey.com/fox-home.htm

Anything you can do with a coil over shock you can do with a air shox, coil over uses steel for a spring Air Shox uses nitrogen as the spring you adjust the spring rate with oil level and pressure, many fear them because if the shock loses their pressure no spring, this has never been a fear of mine and never been a problem, I like the weight savings, endless supply of springs I have in a bottle of oil and nitrogen, I even made external adjustable compression ratio for mine if you wanted to get high tech you could even make them fully external compression and rebound adjustable with a few check balls and a metering device.

My main attraction was the 30+ lbs weight I saved on a 600 lb machine.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: New Jersey
Thanks Dave for the information on the axles and the kit. I have actually taken apart 1 of the CV'S you refer to and it was a chore to say the least!
Hoser has mentioned the spare axle to me as well, I appreciate your mentioning of it.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
There is a reason I call sway away stay away, for years they were using inferior materials and calling them race material, problem for us in the racing world was stay away was the only one making torsion bars for Vws and we kept braking them. I have it on good word from someone I know personally at sway away that good material and heat treat is being used once again and I have a little bit of confidence these will be ok. Unfortunately ATV racing was a victim like everyone else who bought and used and trusted sway away products. I have known the owner Brian Skipper for over 35 years and have had many yell sestions over his products, products for the longest time only they made. what is bad is when they could not get the real good race material, they did not tell anyone and continued to sell the worst crap at the real hi price. Thank you all for the info on the Cvs, I had no idea as this is the first time with them in my hand. Its funny when I spoke to ATV racing about the shocks I was told 1 brand, custom axis that is sold with the kit he sells wont fade over others!?!? and is like the miricle shock?! I klnow the 1 and only thing to keep a shock from fading is OIL, and more of it. Class 11 is required 1 shock per wheel, in the late 70s my dad built and desinged 2 line resivor shocks with 1 way check valves and I have been using them ever since on my 11 and 5/1600 cars the shocks hold over 3.5 gallons of oil ea., and the resivors stretch from door post to door post in a vw. A ATV shock is going to fade so much quicker than even a standard fox will, and with foxes red oil used will not fad for quite awhile even with no resivor. A shock does not car if it nis a ATV, it cares how much it is stroked. I am shocked when I see 2 atv shocks selling for over 1600 dollars for the pair. WHY???? Thank you again for the info and link


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Dave-Co wrote:
There is a reason I call sway away stay away, for years they were using inferior materials and calling them race material, problem for us in the racing world was stay away was the only one making torsion bars for Vws and we kept braking them. I have it on good word from someone I know personally at sway away that good material and heat treat is being used once again and I have a little bit of confidence these will be ok. Unfortunately ATV racing was a victim like everyone else who bought and used and trusted sway away products. I have known the owner Brian Skipper for over 35 years and have had many yell sestions over his products, products for the longest time only they made. what is bad is when they could not get the real good race material, they did not tell anyone and continued to sell the worst crap at the real hi price. Thank you all for the info on the Cvs, I had no idea as this is the first time with them in my hand. Its funny when I spoke to ATV racing about the shocks I was told 1 brand, custom axis that is sold with the kit he sells wont fade over others!?!? and is like the miricle shock?! I klnow the 1 and only thing to keep a shock from fading is OIL, and more of it. Class 11 is required 1 shock per wheel, in the late 70s my dad built and desinged 2 line resivor shocks with 1 way check valves and I have been using them ever since on my 11 and 5/1600 cars the shocks hold over 3.5 gallons of oil ea., and the resivors stretch from door post to door post in a vw. A ATV shock is going to fade so much quicker than even a standard fox will, and with foxes red oil used will not fad for quite awhile even with no resivor. A shock does not car if it nis a ATV, it cares how much it is stroked. I am shocked when I see 2 atv shocks selling for over 1600 dollars for the pair. WHY???? Thank you again for the info and link


I hope the axle breaking problem is history I have witnessed this problem more than once on a ride/race trip and it sucks.

I have read about the 2 line check valve shocks and the 1 gallon reservoirs so the shocks never get hot on another VW site some where long ago its a great idea, millions bumps and jumps and no over heating.

First FOX then custom axis then king then elka I think all the major brands has run its course on the Pilot over the years what ever they think they can sell you and extract the most money from lol oh wait have they used the WORKS on the LT Pilot? WORKS will be the best next?

So whats next on your build?

Where you planning on riding or racing your Pilot when done?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
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next step is the right side rear, took about 20 minutes to make all 3 links, going out to make the top arm after dinner then next week I am going to the front. I use my pilots in Barstow and the sand dunes of Gordons Well which my dad bought Gordons well in about 1946-47 and basically started this madness lol. Barstow is a little over a hour 15 fromk my house and we park the truck rite across the street from the hampton in, get a room and have a ball. A little hot to go just yet that's why I took on this stuff to get ready. Stock is fun, but I want to improve the Engine later. What is the best to do to the Engine? I have always left things stock but would like more umf. Is the 500 mod worth the hasle? or does it make it unreliable?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
Not to many running a 500 mod here some have had issues with the actual studs placement being poorly welxed if my memory serves me right.
How goes the project?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
Thought Gordons well was government owned?

You can make a 400cc run as good at the CR500 converted Pilot engines and save a ton of money if you need more than you can reliably squeeze out of a 400 with your fab skills I would just swap to a sled Engine double to triple the power of a stock Pilot using a stock sled Engine maintain the stock OEM reliability.

don't forget the pics.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:29 pm 
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Hi hoser, people associate the entire sand dune region as Gordons well, we own the actual real Gordons well, not the sand dunes which is government owned. BUT in 1946-47 my dad had the chance to buy the sand dune area at the time he bought Gordons well but it was out of his price range, at 10.000 dollars!!!!! Crazy when we think about it now LOL. Been slow going on the Pilot the last few days, hard to work on when it is over 110 degrees outside and about the same inside the garage. No re-leaf untill late next week they say.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Dave-Co wrote:
Hi hoser, people associate the entire sand dune region as Gordons well, we own the actual real Gordons well, not the sand dunes which is government owned. BUT in 1946-47 my dad had the chance to buy the sand dune area at the time he bought Gordons well but it was out of his price range, at 10.000 dollars!!!!! Crazy when we think about it now LOL. Been slow going on the Pilot the last few days, hard to work on when it is over 110 degrees outside and about the same inside the garage. No re-leaf untill late next week they say.


I guess I don't know where actual Gordons well is then I have rode and camped at "Gordons well" you can give me a tour next time I am in town.

10k for Glamis haha I bet back then that sand was just a nuisance nobody wanted sort of like "timber" land around here up until about the early 80's you could not give it away.

Glamis today would easy make you 10k a day if you had it fenced in and charged admission.

At 110 degrees I would not leave the a/c and the TV :-)

Got new welder hooked up in the shop ran a few beads man I am rusty at the tig thing don't have any filler rod and tungsten for aluminum welding so wont be able to play aluminum until Monday


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Location: Ma
Agreed.. That is why I have a sled Engine too.. Reliable and parts are plentiful and
low cost


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:28 pm 
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hoser the 2 percent red tungsten works just fine on aluminum, use it all the time, never change when welding steel, aluminum or mag! you most likely have been to our property, you cannot miss the big big trees, when you get off at Gordons well exit instead of turning right onto the frontage road to go to the dunes you turn left and go 3/4 of a mile back west and there it is. I don't know if you ate at paradice, but if you did it is a 9 iron shot from there and directly next door with showers, full RV hook ups!.Now it is a full on private RV park for our friends and family and you can see it from the sand dunes also as a refrence point. Up till the mid 60s he ownd all the way to the canal where the road crosses over and leads into the flats that leads to the dunes where most people camp now!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:05 am 
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Location: New Jersey
I went on goggle earth that's a to of property!
Any updates on the project Dave-co?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:06 am 
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Location: Chicago
Dave-Co wrote:
hoser the 2 percent red tungsten works just fine on aluminum, use it all the time, never change when welding steel, aluminum or mag! you most likely have been to our property, you cannot miss the big big trees, when you get off at Gordons well exit instead of turning right onto the frontage road to go to the dunes you turn left and go 3/4 of a mile back west and there it is. I don't know if you ate at paradice, but if you did it is a 9 iron shot from there and directly next door with showers, full RV hook ups!.Now it is a full on private RV park for our friends and family and you can see it from the sand dunes also as a refrence point. Up till the mid 60s he ownd all the way to the canal where the road crosses over and leads into the flats that leads to the dunes where most people camp now!


Ok I been their before its the place with the big fence around it nice spread...

I have some 2% thoriated tungsten will give it a try today you use a blunt end not pointed on aluminum? I have no filler rod so will be all base metal reduction lol will be going to get filler rod tomorrow, what filler are you using for regular aluminum, read some place I want 4043 filler for the cast welding?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Yes, you have been there, there is a whole lotta acres attached that are not fenced but you have been there. 4043 is what you want for your tipicle aluminum work, get a couple pounds of 312 stainless, absolutely beautiful to weld any hi strength steel like 4130, or heat treated metals, you can weld 4130 to most steels or stainless, and diss similar metals like 4130 to cast metals like say the torsion tube on a vw welding 4130 to it this is the stuff to us, or if you are welding mild steel to the torsion tube(as a example) it welds terrific and 312 should be used. 70S2 works very well on most steel to steel, say mild to mild or 4130 to 4130. If you have any question feel free to ask, if I don't know the answer I sure know people that do. One last thing, I don't do any special point or blunt when welding aluminum, your machine settings will force the issue when it comes to the tungston. Like 120HZ will give you a more focused and finer bead verces 60hz blunts the tungston and allows more fill in and wider bead. To much or little of ballance and HZ will blunt your tungston to the point you cant weld because the tungston will dissapier LOL I personally sharpen it to a point no mater what I am welding. Your machine should have come with a sheet showing the parameters as each machine is a little different but if you want better welds the blunt is not going to give it as well as a semi point and as I said the HZ and AC ballance will either leave your tungston sharp or will blunt it on its own. As that goes to each his own, what I like you may like the other way better. Hope this helps, a steady hand , same distance and angle always(extreamly hard to do)and remember when welding around something you have to turn your wrist and hand to keep the same angle on the tungston to work piece. WAY easier to say than to do, because as you begin to put more angle on the gun as you travel the whole weld starts to change as well as your penetration, you start getting more and more angled to the point you are not really welding but covering the seam and start blowing a lot of the heat onto the area you should not be turning molten yet. that separates the good or great welders from the weld wannabees. A good welder makes things look so easy, but in truth it can be very hard to keep that same angle. THAT is what you need to practice, distance and angle, and of course always the same speed!!. For welding 99 percent of steels I set my machine at 100 and use the pedal to adjust from there!! any higher you put to much heat into the area you don't want to heat yet! Aluminum I set about 150-180 and adjust with the pedal because aluminum takes so much more heat and at the same time loses so much heat. but the Ac ballence and HZ have to be rite.! Have fun!!!! Practice practice practice, it takes time but it is very rewarding. I forgot to ad, don't be afraid to go over your weld again if you are not happy with the way a weld looks, many do that including myself, you don't need to use filler on the 2nd-3rd-4th LOL pass but you can turn a frog weld into a beuitifull weld by just going over it again with the same heat or a tad higher


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Its been at least 15 years since I have used a tig with a petal, 99% of my welding is construction and in the field not the shop mostly stick and dual shield, sometimes I will be on a job that has a tig in the field but its always scratch start, every once in a great while I will be sent to a shop to do a few days welding and its usually scratch start and stainless.

Havent welded aluminum for 20 years unless you count using a mig to gob it on some vent piping, only requirements are that you stick the pieces together and its water tight don't have to look good as it will never be seen and "BTW hurry up were losing money on this job"

You should have seen me trying to weld .065 thick aluminum, a lap weld with no filler, then I cut a strip of filler off the base metal I was trying to weld to use as a filler rod haha all while bent over at the waist balancing with one foot on the petal free handing the torch, what a mess.

Not messing with it any more until I get some filler and more material to practice on, hopefully tomorrow, also have to find me a old bar stool or something to use to set on at the bench so I have some torch and foot control.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Location: Chicago
WTF and a bar stool auto-magically appears in my drive way an hr later un freaking believable :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Check out this video and poke around on his site.

Lots of good tig stuff.

Watch it one time and it will help.

http://youtu.be/cwB4PESPAlI


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Location: Ottawa, IL
Read that just as I was walking out the garage. Figured I should spend more time working and less time sitting! :-) Your welcome Sir!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Dave-Co wrote:
Thanks for the reply Mudd, The shock I am going to use on my first attempt at the rear will be a 12 inch fox coilover with a 1 inch spacer put inside to bring it down to 11 inch. The axle I ordered comes from sway away, the same place that ATv gets theres and is 2.5 inches longer than the stock axle, cost 325 for the pair. hoser mentioned you had 1 or 2 sitting with some parts Mudd. I will try to make a complete front and rear kit, Sway away can make the axle any length desired. One thing I have found that makes a kit a bit of a challenge for some is the outer Cv, Honda made it to not come apart, I did contact ATV racing and spoke to Niel who seams to be a very very nice guy who shared his info with me and he explained to me how to get it apart. It involves cutting the stock axle as close as possible to the outer cv, infact right up against it in a chop saw, that way you can turn the star and cage to remove 1 ball at a time because with the axle there you cannot rotate it far enough to remove the balls. It was still difficult to get the axle piece out of the star, and even more so to get the star and cage out of its housing. There is 1 spot that allows room to get it out I have found. The reason I bring this up is not everyone that owns a pilot is mechanically inclined, the axle change could be quite challenging for some, or undoable at all for some. But now that I know how to take them apart they could always send me the stock axles. This week is really the first time I have jumped into working and building this kind of thing for the pilot and am enjoying it, but working a real job 7-330 Monday-Friday and the after work welding I do on the side that pays real well, but is done at other shops and leaves me limited time to do this but I am going to do my best to make something you our anybody else may want. With patience you will get something that you will like at a price nobody can touch(they can but wont). I am also looking at cutting the front ball joints out of the stock arms if someone wants to save even more, they offer a bunch of movement as honda has them so drasticlly restricted with the stock front shock. The way I look at it if I cut them out is no loss, I never plan to go back to stock ever again anyway and they would just be laying around. As lite as the front is even if you let the ball joint bottom on every time the wheel leaves the ground you wont hurt them. As I said in another post I want to help people improve there pilot experience with out braking them At the end of the day it is just working with metal!, and that is something I love to do. When I get the rear finished and turn to the front I plan on making jigs from my finished product that will turn this into a a no time at all to build thing.This one will have hoops similar to the ATV r kit that is so expensive, it is 1---ONE simple bend that takes about 30 seconds on my bender(cant get out of my head how much there kit is)but I am going to look into different shocks to maybe mount in the stock position or maybe a bolt on mount? For me FOX will be the shock of choice for the rear, as I have no problem cutting the cans and shafts to make a shock length to fit what ever application, they are so easy to rebuild, and valving and parts are 3 miles away! and re valving to make it work the way I want will be very simple. There is zero reason a fox cant be made to work as well or better as any way overpriced ATV shock on the market. One thing I personally will never use on my pilots is a air shock, not that there is anything what so ever wrong with a airshock, people use and ride there pilots everyday with them and have a blast, but I want my car to handle the absolute best it possably can, one thing you NEVER see in desert racing is a air shock on any car and if it does have it it certainly is NOT in the winners circle or even close to it on its very best day. If cost on a coilover is to hi for ones budget, save longer, you wont be sorry. If air shock technology was so good, I asure you it would be on dezert racing cars of all types and sizes. Unless your running on a groomed track, with nothing but turns and some jumps or trailriding then the shock doesnt much mater, but if you like challenging long woop sections, typical desert type terrain, and handle it all the best your pilot can, then I would go coilover. I have watched and driven stadium cars, briggs with air shocks and eee with coils, I would take the EEE any day of the week just because of the shocks and because of the way it handled. The Price EEE I talk about was a proven victor over Briggs many time over and best part I got to drive them 1 after the other so the comparison was fresh, jump out of 1 and into the other. They both were capable of doing the same thing, at the same speed but the comfort and ride was much better in the number 1 EEE. The Briggs car worked ok and was fast but the other car gave more confidence and was more forgiving. The eee soaked things up where the other reacted off of things, kinda pranced over things Very noticeable difference. Took more effort to drive the briggs, and I am sure it rode the very best it could with airshocks, but you can only go so far with it. Any questions please ask, please give me your thoughts or concerns---Dave



Interesting concept on getting the axels out of the CVs. The axels are held in the CV star with a wire clip like most automotive, ATV and UTVs. What I did was clamped the axel in the vise with the CV down and gave the tool I made a few good hard wraps and knocked it off. I made a tool with a half circle that fits on the star and welded it to a long handle.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Any updates?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:12 pm 
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here is some new photos hoser, 12.5 inches rear wheel travel with a re desined arm up top,cv turns perfect at 30 degrees down but brought it up to 28, could get more but the inner cv wont let it go any higher. Only way is to change Cvs out which I am considering on this pilot, thinking about milling the inner cv housing and welding a cv cup onto it and doing basically the same to the outside... when I get time, but it has enough travel the way it is and my 12 year old son welded the arm supports, not me lol for 12 years I think he did great, it has been fun working with my boys on this---Dave


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:07 am 
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Looks good any more on the front and the steering linkage thing?

Great to see you have the kids involved.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:34 pm 
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naw havent got to the front yet, to darn hot and humid. Got a lot going on right now so time for the pilot is not there rite now but this weekend I am going to make some time and see what we can come up with---Dave


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
Ok, took a few hours last night and made some significant changes, a ATV racing pilot according to Niel has a 1 inch spacer in a 12 inch shock to limit its travel because I found out (not by him)no consideration at all was given to the top arm wiping out the pivots because of the way they made them. The pictures above were with a 1 inch shim in the shock, removed the shim because my top arms have no chance of destroying the pivots because my arms are designed to give maximum wheel travel. I wanted to see what was so special about ATV racings rear top arm so I orderd a pair to see what is what. Do they know something I don't? I have looked at countless topics on the rear of these things, there is a whole lotta BS being thrown about wheel travel. The rear arm tells the complete story as well as the top pivots, anybody making hi number claims with out mounting the arm tubing the way these are and not touching the pivot cannot ever get near the numbers I read. NO WAY!! I put the ATV racing arm on my pilot and found the truth about the spacer in the shock, with out it the pivots will be toast the first time you bottom the rear with out it. I cut the shock mounts off, removed the 1 inch shims from the shocks, put my arm back on, changed the tubes that run from the seat back to the wheel(again a very important piece for wheel travel that is a different length than used with the ATV arm, mine is a couple inches longer) and the ATV arm on the shelf to collect dust, now my pilot has right at 14 inches of travel, strokes the whole 12 inch shock and if I had a longer custom made shock I could get 15 inches of rear wheel travel easy. The 12 inch shock still limits the rear up travel, but a 14 will be to long, I have the rear at 28 degrees on the cv joint, could go more but don't want to chance it even though the cvs turn perfect at 32 degrees! don't want to tempt fate and brake a cv. I am still lacking close to a couple of inches up so I am thinking about cutting up a 14 inch travel fox and making a custom shock. With my top arm design with the wheel pushed back to straighten the axle out the axle which relaxed the suspension, the axle will travel up to a 16th of a inch from hitting the battery mount!! with the tire on and does not do a funky move up top That is with out a shock on, but a custom length will get that extra travel that is there for the taking!!! I already have new 14s on the way, and will make a 13ish travel shock that should give me what I want. Might be able to use a shim in the 14 to get my desired length!?!? Been a lot of fun playing with this with my kids, going to do this to another of my 3 pilots. It surprises me that people who make this stuff all the time like ATV make the arm like they do and limit so much for what?? I do not claim to be the pilot expert, but I do like to gain all I can when I put my mind to it and this looks like it will work well.


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