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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Also a members,but I forget who,might give some ideas.

Personally,if I was designing a steering system,I would do something like this,except make it clamp the lower tubes,no welding at all.Benefit of a rack but with "go-kart" feel.

Cowboys is a work of art!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 1785
Location: New Mexico
bullnerd wrote:
Also a members,but I forget who,might give some ideas.

Personally,if I was designing a steering system,I would do something like this,except make it clamp the lower tubes,no welding at all.Benefit of a rack but with "go-kart" feel.

Cowboys is a work of art!


That rack was installed on my Pilot when I bought it. It takes a little more muscle to turn it compared to a tie rod set up, but I have never really noticed any jerk in steering wheel with it even with the off set after market wheels.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
that's cool Rat,I didnt realise it was yours.

A UHMW liner would make slick instead of alu. on alu.

rarerat wrote:
bullnerd wrote:
Also a members,but I forget who,might give some ideas.

Personally,if I was designing a steering system,I would do something like this,except make it clamp the lower tubes,no welding at all.Benefit of a rack but with "go-kart" feel.

Cowboys is a work of art!


That rack was installed on my Pilot when I bought it. It takes a little more muscle to turn it compared to a tie rod set up, but I have never really noticed any jerk in steering wheel with it even with the off set after market wheels.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:38 pm
Posts: 1785
Location: New Mexico
I pulled it back out again last year and added some aluminum strips along the slots where it slides. The slot is worn a bit & they helped prevent the shaft from rocking and binding & made it so much much easier to turn especially toward the end of the day when you are tired. I'll bet when it was new it worked great, but I am guessing it was installed on my Pilot when it was it was fairly new and it didn't look like it had ever once been lubed. When I first bought the Pilot it was so dry you could not hardly turn the steering wheel unless you where moving.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
Been working on the rear of one of my pilots, made the top arm and all the links 2.4 wider, have a set of axles on the way, 320 for the pair. I have used the best hymes at about 21 dollars each, I notice in almost all photos the economy hymes are used by almost all, how do they hold up? I can buy those for about 3 bucks each if they have been working well? Been thinking about the bolt on bump steer system and thinking about building a platform that bolts to the front arm pivot bolts, for mine I will weld all in but will do my darndest to make one bolt in as you have asked. will be going to the front after I finish the upper arm for the other side. I trimmed the stock piece that bolts to the ball joint out of the stock arm and had no issue re using that piece. I bought new arm pivots made by auto fab for the top arm and cut a piece of 1 inch 095 4130 1.4 inches long to weld to with the auto fab bushing pushed inside, cost 5 bucks per pivot and re used the stock bolts. With a 12 inch fox coilover the rear is really simple and cheap to do. I might go wider on the next one or may just stick with this. So far as you can see the cost is no where near what some are charging, like 3390!?!?!? Sorry guys and gals, I could not do that to any of you no mater how fat your wallet may be! next will be the shock hoops, 1 simple bend after I get the axle and install the cvs so I can make sure the cv joint does not bind up or down and to make sure the ball joint does not over travel. Bought a foot long 3/4 1/2 id 4130 tube to re locate the tube running from your hip back being the stock location now will cause the rear to track wrong threw the travel. I will drill threw the bottom rail near the back side pod mount on the bottom to re do that mount.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3760
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Mega thanks on your developements/upates so far Dave.
BUT where are the pics Man???? :-)
We thrive on the pics.

On the heims,I reckon the higher quality ones are the ONLY way to go.
Maybe cheaper in the short term with the lesser quality ones.
BUT cheaper in the long run with the better quality,not to mention safer in the event of a failure at speed?

Can't wait for your pics........hurry up please.Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:57 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Since most this was totally off topic in the FL-400 Front End Kit By YODA post I split the topic and started a new post, looks like most of it made it here I have no idea where the rest went if someone sees it in another post some place let me know I will merge it here.

The "split topic" feature in this phpbb is a joke I selected all the post I could see then hit submit I could NOT select ALL the post because their was more post on the "next page" if you went to the next page you could not select them so I chose the submit button figured I could go back and get the rest, went back selected the rest hit the button it did it thing now the post are gone but not here.

No clue where they are see them some place I will try again, hard to believe no matter how badly a user screwed up trying to merge it would just delete the post so they have to be someplace.

NOW I remember why I almost NEVER use this feature.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:22 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
:shock: It looks like the other thread has all the new info(for this thread),and nothing about the Yoda stuff?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:18 am
Posts: 389
Location: Round Rock
Cant wait.... I would love to have LT in the rear for sure on a few pilots, and at least 1 front LT.... Thank you for taking on such a project! -::


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
I will get my son to take some today, hope to post photos by this afternoon


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
shoubadaba wrote:
With adding just 2 inches to the rear you gain 5 more inches of travel. From 7 to 12. Wonder if you go 2 1/2 wider each side if we could achive 13 to 14 inches in the rear?????
I know one thing, I can read a tape measure and with the rear stretched 2.5 in the rear I get barley 8 and 1/4, the fact is the ball joint will never let you come near 12 inches and the pivots up top would have to be re designed completely to do so. It is no different than off road race cars, hey man I have 30 inches when in fact he has 12. The top pivot in the back the top arm would have to circle to the back side of the frame to come even close to 10. as it is the top arm in the back pivot is straight up at 8 and the front pivot up top is right there with the other. 12 is so far out of reach its not even a thought.Suspensions are my thing, and my pilot cant get no more than 8 1/4 MAX


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Mudbogger's LT Pilot came with a spare parts box in it had a axle that measures 17-3/4" long I assume its a ATV Racing axle? Not sure how long the stock axle is anybody ever measure one?

If I jack up the rear of my Pilot remove the rear tire and shock then push down on the suspension as hard as I can and measure from the center of the axle to the floor then raise up the suspension until it will not go any more then measure to the center of the axle again I get 10" vertical, usable travel, my rear suspension is all stock Honda, the upper arm actually contacts the frame on full bump and the weld on top of the upper arm actually has dented my frame where it contacts the frame, I have since ground off the weld where it contacts the frame.

We documented all this years ago cant find the discussion and the pics I took of my rear suspension with the dented arms I did find this viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3110&view=next


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Give this one a read http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5859


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:47 am 
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Posts: 550
hoser wrote:
Thank you much hoser, maybe I am measuring wrong, but up and full droop 8 1/4 I can grind part of the pivot away being the top arm hits the back pivot first. Wont give up, thought of another arm desing I might try


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Posts: 550
Dave-Co wrote:
hoser wrote:
Thank you much hoser, maybe I am measuring wrong, but up and full droop 8 1/4 I can grind part of the pivot away being the top arm hits the back pivot first. Wont give up, thought of another arm desing I might try
took the stock front shock off and was amazed how much Honda limited the front travel but then again going up and down you can watch the drum turn in and out a lot. just a little more desing work from Honda and these things could have been super buggies from the factory. Now I see why they tend to u shape tie rods but the potential for big things is there with the stock front end. Heck it travels 10 inches with the tie rod being the thing to hit first top and bottom, the ball joints still have more in them. A special shock made to the rite length and a different steering system could really make things enjoyable up front with out the need for expensive parts. But then again the extra width does add stability.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:03 am 
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Posts: 550
Dave-Co wrote:
Dave-Co wrote:
hoser wrote:
Thank you much hoser, maybe I am measuring wrong, but up and full droop 8 1/4 I can grind part of the pivot away being the top arm hits the back pivot first. Wont give up, thought of another arm desing I might try
took the stock front shock off and was amazed how much Honda limited the front travel but then again going up and down you can watch the drum turn in and out a lot. just a little more desing work from Honda and these things could have been super buggies from the factory. Now I see why they tend to u shape tie rods but the potential for big things is there with the stock front end. Heck it travels 10 inches with the tie rod being the thing to hit first top and bottom, the ball joints still have more in them. A special shock made to the rite length and a different steering system could really make things enjoyable up front with out the need for expensive parts. But then again the extra width does add stability.
I found the error of my ways and made another top arm for the rear and now I get all kinds of up and down movement


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:39 am 
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Location: Chicago
Dave-Co wrote:
Dave-Co wrote:
hoser wrote:
Thank you much hoser, maybe I am measuring wrong, but up and full droop 8 1/4 I can grind part of the pivot away being the top arm hits the back pivot first. Wont give up, thought of another arm desing I might try
took the stock front shock off and was amazed how much Honda limited the front travel but then again going up and down you can watch the drum turn in and out a lot. just a little more desing work from Honda and these things could have been super buggies from the factory. Now I see why they tend to u shape tie rods but the potential for big things is there with the stock front end. Heck it travels 10 inches with the tie rod being the thing to hit first top and bottom, the ball joints still have more in them. A special shock made to the rite length and a different steering system could really make things enjoyable up front with out the need for expensive parts. But then again the extra width does add stability.


All Honda needed to do was make the front tub area 1" smaller on each side this would allow them to make the front arms 1" longer on each side they also could have moved the mounts points of the arms on the frame to either on top or bottom of the tubes rather then the outside of the tubes where they mounted the arms and gained another 1" they could have added to the arms at this point they would be +2" arms and the same front width but with about 10" travel they could also have added +2" to the arms as YODA did for a total of 4" wider arms and over 12" travel in the front just made the tie rods 2" longer and only made the Pilot 2" wider in front.

After owning a Pilot since 1995 I would never miss that 1" width in the tub.

If I was going to copy the Pilot today and go into production this would be one of the changes I would be making.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Posts: 550
totally agree hoser, going to get my son to put some photos on tonight, wanted to yesterday but you know kids lol. I had mounted the tubing to hi on the top pivots and the tube was hitting the -pivot mount way to soon(brain fade) I think it is rite on now, the way the top arm is now I think is spot on and travels freely all the way beyond where the cv would let it go!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Refreshing to see someone that uses a tig also using filler metal for the weld and not just the base metal.

Details on the Baja suspension please.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Looks very nice..
Say those are some purty welds!
regards


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:13 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
The filler rod is 312 stainless, works very well on 4130 and welding 4130 to cast type metal like the ball joint piece is made out of. Cant get any strength with out filler rod. That is my 5/1600 baja that I have had for years and years. Won everywhere from the Mint 400 to Crandon Wisconson, Baja 1000 and 500 and countless short course wins, The rear is IRS Micro stub set up running my own make arms that runs 1 Fox 14 inch 2.5 4 tube bypass, the axle length is 19.5 with a 1 inch longer than stock arm producing almost 15 inches of wheel travel. The tire hitting the body is the limiting factor, I run a 300M 23mm torsion bar. The front has about 9 inches of travel with stock width front end with sway away(stay away) 5 leafs up top and 6 leafs in the bottom tube. Could go more but it willwipe out the torsion bars real fast if I do. has a big Nissan bump stop up front that you can drive this thing into the biggest holes with ease. I will post some suspension and inside shots tommorow after work, race ready it tips the Score scales at 1503 lbs. This same set up on my 1600 cars produces 20.5 inches of travel, I run a 21mm bar in my buggies. I know you have been to Crandon before hoser correct? I have won there 4 times over the years, infact I was the first souther cal racer to go there in 1988! I saw some shots you took of the Fridays EEE type car, Michelle Friday rode in this Baja bug to a 5/1600 win in Crandon with me in 1989(I think) maybe 90. I have raced 5/1600 since 1977 when the class first came about and started racing class 11 stock Vw sedans at 14 years old in 1975. I still have my original 1967 class 11 built in 75 and also have a newer class 11 that I race at Snores Battle at Primm every year


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:09 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Any updates?

If you get a chance maybe you can start another post and post up some pics of your Baja?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
hoser wrote:
Any updates?

If you get a chance maybe you can start another post and post up some pics of your Baja?

Updates?
You didn't know I am installing the front from Dave tonight on my pilot and the rear LT sun morning... It's so amazing! :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: New Jersey
Forgive me if I missed this in the thread-on the rear suspension you had mentioned a FOX 12 INCH coil over shock must be used but does that need a upper hoop installed? or can the stock shock mount be used? Some time ago a member DC made a rear shock bracket that enabled you to use a longer better FOX AIR shock, are you familiar with them and could they be used in this system by chance?
Also axles-I glossed over the thread and I see a mention of axles coming , but and again forgive me if I missed this I do not see any information on length, type, etc.Would we need to purchase just a longer axle like ATVR makes for thier long travel kits or the axles you had made? Can the axles you had purchased be used in the studs from Honda?
Thanks for pursuing this project for the community-when will be kits be going on the market any ideas? Also ideas on selling a 100% complete kit, or just the bare essentials and having the purchaser buy the axles and stuff separately?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Thanks for the reply Mudd, The shock I am going to use on my first attempt at the rear will be a 12 inch fox coilover with a 1 inch spacer put inside to bring it down to 11 inch. The axle I ordered comes from sway away, the same place that ATv gets theres and is 2.5 inches longer than the stock axle, cost 325 for the pair. hoser mentioned you had 1 or 2 sitting with some parts Mudd. I will try to make a complete front and rear kit, Sway away can make the axle any length desired. One thing I have found that makes a kit a bit of a challenge for some is the outer Cv, Honda made it to not come apart, I did contact ATV racing and spoke to Niel who seams to be a very very nice guy who shared his info with me and he explained to me how to get it apart. It involves cutting the stock axle as close as possible to the outer cv, infact right up against it in a chop saw, that way you can turn the star and cage to remove 1 ball at a time because with the axle there you cannot rotate it far enough to remove the balls. It was still difficult to get the axle piece out of the star, and even more so to get the star and cage out of its housing. There is 1 spot that allows room to get it out I have found. The reason I bring this up is not everyone that owns a pilot is mechanically inclined, the axle change could be quite challenging for some, or undoable at all for some. But now that I know how to take them apart they could always send me the stock axles. This week is really the first time I have jumped into working and building this kind of thing for the pilot and am enjoying it, but working a real job 7-330 Monday-Friday and the after work welding I do on the side that pays real well, but is done at other shops and leaves me limited time to do this but I am going to do my best to make something you our anybody else may want. With patience you will get something that you will like at a price nobody can touch(they can but wont). I am also looking at cutting the front ball joints out of the stock arms if someone wants to save even more, they offer a bunch of movement as honda has them so drasticlly restricted with the stock front shock. The way I look at it if I cut them out is no loss, I never plan to go back to stock ever again anyway and they would just be laying around. As lite as the front is even if you let the ball joint bottom on every time the wheel leaves the ground you wont hurt them. As I said in another post I want to help people improve there pilot experience with out braking them At the end of the day it is just working with metal!, and that is something I love to do. When I get the rear finished and turn to the front I plan on making jigs from my finished product that will turn this into a a no time at all to build thing.This one will have hoops similar to the ATV r kit that is so expensive, it is 1---ONE simple bend that takes about 30 seconds on my bender(cant get out of my head how much there kit is)but I am going to look into different shocks to maybe mount in the stock position or maybe a bolt on mount? For me FOX will be the shock of choice for the rear, as I have no problem cutting the cans and shafts to make a shock length to fit what ever application, they are so easy to rebuild, and valving and parts are 3 miles away! and re valving to make it work the way I want will be very simple. There is zero reason a fox cant be made to work as well or better as any way overpriced ATV shock on the market. One thing I personally will never use on my pilots is a air shock, not that there is anything what so ever wrong with a airshock, people use and ride there pilots everyday with them and have a blast, but I want my car to handle the absolute best it possably can, one thing you NEVER see in desert racing is a air shock on any car and if it does have it it certainly is NOT in the winners circle or even close to it on its very best day. If cost on a coilover is to hi for ones budget, save longer, you wont be sorry. If air shock technology was so good, I asure you it would be on dezert racing cars of all types and sizes. Unless your running on a groomed track, with nothing but turns and some jumps or trailriding then the shock doesnt much mater, but if you like challenging long woop sections, typical desert type terrain, and handle it all the best your pilot can, then I would go coilover. I have watched and driven stadium cars, briggs with air shocks and eee with coils, I would take the EEE any day of the week just because of the shocks and because of the way it handled. The Price EEE I talk about was a proven victor over Briggs many time over and best part I got to drive them 1 after the other so the comparison was fresh, jump out of 1 and into the other. They both were capable of doing the same thing, at the same speed but the comfort and ride was much better in the number 1 EEE. The Briggs car worked ok and was fast but the other car gave more confidence and was more forgiving. The eee soaked things up where the other reacted off of things, kinda pranced over things Very noticeable difference. Took more effort to drive the briggs, and I am sure it rode the very best it could with airshocks, but you can only go so far with it. Any questions please ask, please give me your thoughts or concerns---Dave


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