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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
bought more 4130, going to the front when I can


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
Dave-Co wrote:
bought more 4130, going to the front when I can


Cool

What size tubing and how much per foot if you don't mind me asking?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:17 am 
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I bought 60 feet of 1 inch 095 4130 for 212 with tax. Not good with math, what ever that works out to be per foot, I get a great deal on it. I was going to make the top arm out of 3/4 120 wall but I loaned my 3/4 die to a friend? who has never returned it and has made every excuse why I don't have it back. Oh well, top and bottom 1 inch 095. Could probobly get away with 065 on such a lite car but with 095 I seriously doubt they will bend! Started making a jig tonite for the front arms, got the spacing made for the top and bottom arm, now have to figure out the rest. I used big seat belt washers welded onto some large angle iron to start, these particular arms are going to be made with the stock arm bushings and the stock ball joints that I will cut from the arms. Took it apart last night and the rubber boot is history but the ball joints are fine, the pivots I diss assembled today so when I cut and weld on them they will be fine. I never plan on going back on this pilot so I am going to use all I can. So what if the ball joint is not replaceable, I doubt it will ever go bad anyway and if it does I will cross that bridge. They give a lot of movement up and down and with only a 23-7-10 tire comming down on it I don't have much to worry about. Besides to save some money others may want to do there LT this way, there pilot already has the stuff the rest is just tubing! and these things work well on stock pilots, much better than what chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts uses for ball joints, you don't see bent Honda pilot ball joints bend like what he uses..and the stock ball joint will give more movemt. I do plan on making arms with replacable ball joints, and different pivots, just not this time.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:03 am 
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Location: Chicago
Dave-Co wrote:
I bought 60 feet of 1 inch 095 4130 for 212 with tax. Not good with math, what ever that works out to be per foot, I get a great deal on it. I was going to make the top arm out of 3/4 120 wall but I loaned my 3/4 die to a friend? who has never returned it and has made every excuse why I don't have it back. Oh well, top and bottom 1 inch 095. Could probobly get away with 065 on such a lite car but with 095 I seriously doubt they will bend! Started making a jig tonite for the front arms, got the spacing made for the top and bottom arm, now have to figure out the rest. I used big seat belt washers welded onto some large angle iron to start, these particular arms are going to be made with the stock arm bushings and the stock ball joints that I will cut from the arms. Took it apart last night and the rubber boot is history but the ball joints are fine, the pivots I diss assembled today so when I cut and weld on them they will be fine. I never plan on going back on this pilot so I am going to use all I can. So what if the ball joint is not replaceable, I doubt it will ever go bad anyway and if it does I will cross that bridge. They give a lot of movement up and down and with only a 23-7-10 tire comming down on it I don't have much to worry about. Besides to save some money others may want to do there LT this way, there pilot already has the stuff the rest is just tubing! and these things work well on stock pilots, much better than what chucklenuts at aftershot motorspurts uses for ball joints, you don't see bent Honda pilot ball joints bend like what he uses..and the stock ball joint will give more movemt. I do plan on making arms with replaceable ball joints, and different pivots, just not this time.


Honda made the upper arms on the 90 Pilot larger in diameter than the 89

My thoughts, most the bent arms I have seen on Pilots from use was the lower and from hitting something on the trail all upper arms I seen bent were from crashing and you had to hit them just right or very hard to bend, I would be happy with .065 on my arms upper and lower pretty sure that's thicker than what Honda used and 4130 is about 2x harder to bend than the cheap steep Honda used?

Thinner not only to save weight but also so in a bad crash the arms bend not the frame or so you don't rip the mounting tabs for the arms off the frame arms be fast and cheap to repair.

Ball joint boot info http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=237&view=next
http://pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?t=237


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:26 am 
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Location: Chandler, AZ
I would use heims to mount the Aarms to the frame upper and lower that way you can adjust caster and camber, I would do the lowers because almost every pilot I have seen the frame is tweaked a little bit Honda used paper thin tubing on the frames, you can square the wheelbase by adjusting the rear trailing arms but I have seen frames that are 1 to 1-1/2" out of square so you really have to jack on the trailing arms to square the wheel base, so if the lower Aarm had heims you could adjust all four corners a little making for a better adjustment.

Also the stock heim and clips on the factory Aarms are a notoriously poor design once the clip pops out it never seems to stay back in and the Aarms will just float back and forth in the frame.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:56 pm
Posts: 550
Thank you so much for the info guys, I like the idea of all hymes for complete adjustment and will be making arms that way no doubt. For some reason I felt the arms would float back and forth with all hymes being the mounts are straight with each other? but admit I have not tried it yet. I was going to do that with the back top arm but thought it would move more than wanted. Heck I am into trying anything to get something rite, going to look into it. Thanks again hoser and afastcar


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:58 am 
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Made both upper arms tonight, 4.5 inches wider and a jig to make them, now to the bottom arms, photos tommorow


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:13 am 
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Hoser could you please give me the eye to eye length on Mudds long travel front shock please, finished one side, will have my son put up photos in the morning. I used the stock pilot ball joints, hymes up top and auto fab bushings on the bottom. Going racing this weekend at the Snore Midnight special, will post some pics before we leave in the morning


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:25 am 
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Location: Upland, Ca
Hey Dave where is this weekends race?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Johnson valley near Lecern, over 200 cars ready to rip it up. Here is some photos of the left front, first time doing this kind of thing, and made from looking at pictures only. 4.5 inches longer


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
Any updates?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:33 am 
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yes, have made 2 complete sets of 4.5 arms, finished the 2nd set tonite. The front has more travel with the stock ball joints than the tie rods can take. Going to get them chromed, after I make and figure out the shock mounts


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:37 pm 
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Posts: 2702
Location: Upland, Ca
hows the turning with the stock wheels? Looks like the upper a-arm is going to limit the motion with the stock rims. atvs upper arm has a sharper angle back from the ball joint. I would put a stock wheel on and check the wheel clearence to the arm at max turn to see if its less then stock. The Long travel pilots tend to push pretty bad a few degrees of more turning could help.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:19 am 
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personally I could care less about the stock wheels, I think they are ugly. I have 3 sets and never plan to use them. I have a set of my friends ATV racing arms and the bends are the same to the nats behind, as well as the ball joint placement, and angles. I stuck a stock wheel on and it is close but close is ok.The stock ball joints give more angle and travel than the vw ball joint used by ATV. so much the tie rods cant keep up. Driven with both wheels on a friends 2 long travel pilots with the bump steer set up correctly last sunday and really felt no difference between the 2 wheels. much much better than a stock set up, after driving both of his I cannot for the life of me see how these are driven with out the steering fixed. night and day difference It is amazing how bad the stock steering is. Honda for sure flubbed that aspect and had to limit the front so much to even make it drivable


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
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Location: New Jersey
Dave-Co wrote:
yes, have made 2 complete sets of 4.5 arms, finished the 2nd set tonite. The front has more travel with the stock ball joints than the tie rods can take. Going to get them chromed, after I make and figure out the shock mounts


can I purchase a set please?
The stock brake line need to be replaced or no?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:12 pm 
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hi Mudd, how are you, as far as it looks to me the stock brake line will work fine, I have not taken mine off, its not as fancy as the 200?? dollar front brake lines from... but I have no intention of changing them. I have cut the ball joints out of the arms that I had on my pilots, if you want to send me your stock arms I would be happy to make you a set hundreds cheaper than anywhere else! all tig welded 4130. You will be happy!...Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
I will send you a PM thank you


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Dave-Co wrote:
personally I could care less about the stock wheels, I think they are ugly. I have 3 sets and never plan to use them. I have a set of my friends ATV racing arms and the bends are the same to the nats behind, as well as the ball joint placement, and angles. I stuck a stock wheel on and it is close but close is ok.The stock ball joints give more angle and travel than the vw ball joint used by ATV. so much the tie rods cant keep up. Driven with both wheels on a friends 2 long travel pilots with the bump steer set up correctly last sunday and really felt no difference between the 2 wheels. much much better than a stock set up, after driving both of his I cannot for the life of me see how these are driven with out the steering fixed. night and day difference It is amazing how bad the stock steering is. Honda for sure flubbed that aspect and had to limit the front so much to even make it drivable



How much you want for them ugly OEM rims?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:48 am 
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thought I would give a update, the pilot is finished, took it to the desert this past weekend and to say it is amazing just is not enough. The front end ended up with 16 inches of usable wheeltravel with the stock ball joints with 2 stage Fox X coilover shocks that are 19.5 inches eye to eye and as I stated before the rear is at 14. with fox coilovers. I can still get more by redoing the shock length. My friend has 2 full blown ATV long travel??? pilots that he has no intrest in after driving this one, he is ready to scrap both front and rear arms and shocks and copy this one. I bought the front shocks off a guy that had them on a dracart and was selling some airshocks on e-bay. I have to say the front is absolutely amazing. Took a bit to adjust the steering but after some heavy head scratching trying to keep it from wanting to go left everytime we got the alignment real close to 1/4 toed in, a few wrong? adjustments with what I thought was to much toe in it was like magic, the pilot can be driven through the roughest stuff one handed like it is on rails. No pull to one side, no jerking of the wheel, my 12 year old son had a ball in it. I will have my son post some photos tomorrow, With a 100 percent stock Engine it will eat my friends long travel 500s for lunch where suspension is needed. In plain words his suck LOL. WAY to stiff, way to much rear kick I completly guessed on the front shock location on the front arms and made new mounts up top but it strokes the entire shock and bottoms the shock just before the ball joint tops out. My friend took some video of it on a long woop section with holes out at Barstow, the pilot stays level with the wheels doing the work, then took video of his, I don't think his wheels move,. Mine was using 3/4 of the rear shocks I guessed at the spring adjustment, a little adjustment and was able to use all the rear travel and at the end it was really fun to drive, ZERO kick in the rear, the front never hit the ground but soaked it all up the only thing that limits it is its length now. With some HP this thing would be something. Total expenditure was 284 each for the rear coilover foxes with springs costing 40 buck each, the front shocks were 250 for the pair about 1500 new from what I understand, I won the bump steer kit on e-bay for 178 and I have MAYBE a hundred fifty dollars in all the front and rear arms and links plus I used top quality hymes including making the tie rods with them because the stock tie rod ends cannot come close to reaching as far as they need to. The stock front and rear brake lines worked fine and DO NOT need to be changed. I have learned a lot about what and what not to do the last month or 2 and have had a great time doing it. I feel bad for the people who have sunk fortunes into what they thought were top long travel pilots, 6-7 grand, not even close, or should I say inches away and so much to stiff you cant use 1/4 of the limited travel you have. Thank you hoser and all the input you and others have given me. Now its onto pilot number 2. hoser I will get back to you on the wheels, my friend asked me about them before I saw you had asked. I will let you know! Thanks again---Dave


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:43 am 
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Location: Chicago
Good stuff cant wait to see the pics and Pilot #2 modified.

Been preaching for years all you have to do is watch the ATVR LT Pilots in the rough watch the drivers head bobble around it tells you the suspension is NOT WORKING then follow one and watch the rear upper A arms they barley move as the drivers head it tossed about never seen one yet that had the shocks setup correctly always way too stiff. Next watch any ATVR LT Pilot racing and watch the front tires they are always twitching left to right like the driver has no control in the same videos watch all other non ATVR Pilots and buggies they never do this going the same speeds over the same terrain, you don't have to be suspension/steering expert to see their 6-7k system sucks, is it better than stock YES is it what they claim NOT EVEN CLOSE.

They have never really had any competition when it comes to Pilot suspension kits so their legendary performance and travel has become another legend in their and their owners minds this legend got a big boost when the internet became popular.

You have plans to offer a suspension kit I am sure many would love to have something that actually works.

FYI their Engine modification are nothing to brag about when you know better and compare them to something that was built right, lost count of how many of the ATVR engines I had to correct the problems they created so the Engine would last more than 1-2 hrs before they would poofkaboom, my full mod 400cc Pilot Engine ran right along side 3 different ATVR CR500 full mod Pilot engines that the owners spent 3500.00 + for the Engine mod.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:25 pm 
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What I don't understand is if you are going to build and market a long travel kit make it long travel for heavens sake. I have driven a lot of off road race cars and tuned them to win, out of the box the steering was a issue and took some unconventional ideas that worked much better than I could of imagined and made the steering so easy my 90 year old grandma could drive it with out ripping the wheel out of her hand. The bottom line is the wheels have to go up and come down, it does no one anygood to use a couple of inches of movement leaving 10 or more on the table unuseable. I am using every inch of shock travel with out the car crashing down. I put a zip tie on all the shafts to see how much was being used and at first I couldnt get the last 3 so it was close rite away. Anyway here is some pictures taken in my garage, hope you enjoy them


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:27 pm 
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more..


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:29 pm 
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more...IF I had kept to the 1/4 toe in like directed in the ATV directions I would have parked this thing and quit. Those pilots you speak of with darting steering is exactlly what my friends 2 long travel pilots do and they were at 1/4, while not extremely horrible they are or were BAD untill we made the same adjustments on his and again like magic the steering on his 2 was effortless, steered straight down the road with your hands off the wheel never jerked the wheel. All I read is how badly the ATV pilots push in turns, mine turns excellent, and so did his 2 after screwing with the toe. together the wheels are toed in about a inch and a quarter or maybe even more removing all the steering problems I have read about. I also run 2 degrees negative camber up front. That is what took me so much head scratching because it sounds like a lot, normally in my mind to much but the proof is in the puddin, it is a huge drastic change that makes it so incredible to drive. Maybe its a desing flaw or?? but it sure does not hurt anything being toed in like that. I know one thing my friends 2 pilots were transformed in the steering but still horrible to ride in


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Location: Chandler, AZ
What springs did you end up going with in the rear?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:18 pm 
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I think they are 130-70, I was going to follow what you did when I went to get the springs and the top spring they had in stock was a 70 and they had the 130s and where I get my stuff I have no problem exchanging so I decided to go with it and see. I personally like a softer spring with a higher ride height but I have to say it is so darn close the way it is rite now it is working the way I feel it should. I don't think there are many that can say they are using the entire 12 inch shock on there pilot even if they have one mounted. I am going to try a 60 but the truth is it does everything I want now, ZERO kick in the back which NO ATV pilot can be said. The ride is really amazing, this thing would do well in a desert race but I never plan to race these but I want them to work and handle the absolute best. Thank you for giving me a start point on the springs and the valving that came in the back shocks seams like it was made for this thing. I cannot claim any fault in the front or back which I mean valving changes. The front is beyond incredible soaking up all the big hits and long woops and holes, I am talking big. Watching my friend drive it back and forth threw a wooped out big ditch section was really something to watch, you could see the tires moving a LOT with the pilot staying a tad nose up with no kicking what so ever. Watching my friends long travel go threw the same section was painfull to watch LOL he looked like he was being beat to death and the wheels didnt look like they moved up or down. He is driving me nuts to remake his 2 pilots now. What worries me is the price for new front shocks like this, these have titanium springs, they are fully adjustable both comp and rebound and cost a LOT new, more than I would have ever paid LOL. I tried to win his airshocks he had on e-bay but didnt thankfully but did win the bumpsteer kit and that's how I came to buy these shocks, Not only did I get these from him but also made a friend out of the deal!! Thank you Kieth!!!!


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