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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
Hi. I showed this to Gregg and he has read the entire thread. I am typing for him as he did therapy yesterday and his hands are killing him.
As far as his kit? is concerned he has had 0 problems with Dave and the kit he contracted Dave to build for him. He says he has not measured the travel? to date but for him it was never a issue. Other then a slight communication issue( we are in nj, Dave is on west coast) he got exactly what he paid for. He wished the project that Steve had contracted Dave to do went better and hopes the 2 sides can communicate to resolve the pending issues.
That said he still has a pilot with Dave and to our knowledge all parts and associated hardware is exactly as asked for and we are looking forward to shipping it back here. I hope this answers any questions. Please forgive our lack of posting, we have several issues here that take a bit of priority over this stuff.


Do us a favor and soon as you get back into the shop and before your second Pilot is shipped back remove one front and one rear shock, remove the springs, reinstall the shocks measure the actual suspension travel your getting, I have a hint its NOT any where close to the numbers that Dave has boasted in the past, if I am wrong and they are the numbers Dave boast then scpilot66 did NOT get the same kit as you or others paid for and received.

Many don't know and understand that Arizona and California has different units of measurements than the rest of the planet everything they measure is bigger and better than the rest of the world. First it was ATV Racing with their bullshit numbers then CW Racing with his exaggerations on suspension travel and now I am finding out that Dave-co cant measure either.

A friend of mine (Don Vanhooser) learned that CW cant measure I witnessed this myself with the arms he bought, Cowboy learned that ATV Racing cant measure, since the early days of PilotOdyssey.com its been well documented what a POS ATV Racing is and all their LIES NOW unfortunately were learning Dave-Co cant measure OR they are all just LIARS you decide Dave-Co has said couontless times how great his shit is I am getting the feeling ONLY HIS PERSONAL MACHINES might be close to what he has spewed here, I have seen a second example of Dave-co's skills documented here on this site I suspect that if EVERY person that has bought one of Dave's kits would take the time to measure they will find out they were shorted too.

Is Dave's suspension better than stock I am sure it is but that is NOT THE POINT the POINT is its NOT living up to the standards dave established on this site.

Is ATVR's suspension better than stock YES but it does not live up to its advertised expectations, those mutts have been documented LIARS for years.

Mudbogger I hope your back in the shop getting dirty sooner than later stop by the chat room when your ready to type again do not punish your wife and make her dictate for you haha tell her happy MOTHERS DAY too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:22 pm
Posts: 2641
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
Its been 2 months since the start of this thread. Any updates? Problems solved? Dave fix any of HIS mistakes?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
Yeah what he said BUMP! :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:45 pm
Posts: 1085
Location: Cedar Crest New Mexico
I am very happy for the people who are happy with there LT pilots, good for you guys.

As it stands with my pilot, it can not be thrown together and ridden. Not because of my perfectionism or because of the cheap little nuts.

My right front upper ball joint is unsafe to use, it has to be replaced!!! Dave told me in a message on 3/27/2015 that he put this bad one in my parts Friday night 3/20/2015 after I left for the night. Dave sent me home with an unsafe ball joint, knowing it was bad and not usable!!!
My right front lower ball joint is twisted wrong in the arm when welded, IT CAN NOT BE ADJUSTED. It has to be cut out and redone. I will replace it with a better one when I cut it apart.

I have been able to adjust the left front to get a little over 14 inches of free travel, this is with using different washers where the heims spacers go on the frame mounts, I have had to do this to center the ball joints better to allow more travel as these ball joints while much closer then the right front are also not turned just right in the arm when welded. With the shock on it has 11 inches of travel to the shock bumper which is 1 inch thick.
If the right front turns out better then the left I will probably cut out and replace the ball joints on the left front as well.

I have been able to get 14 inches of free travel from the rear and 12 inches with the shock on but I have to make longer radius arms and redo the radius arm frame mounts.

The steering is going to be a whole can of worms in itself, I am going to deal with it last I think.

I have not been able to do anything with my pilot for a while now, I will post in projects when I am able to get back on it.

I can not ride my pilot, I have to do things to it that I paid Dave to do, I have to buy and make things that I have already paid Dave for, I have to replace ball joints that I TRUSTED Dave with, I have to pay to have it all welded. Not to mention that I am also not an off road shock expert or a suspension designer so I have to do a lot of learning, learning that I do not have time for right now.

I have heard nothing from Dave, I do not expect to. Quite honestly, after what he has put myself and my family through with what he did to ME, I want nothing to do with him, I am not a thief or a liar and I do not wish to deal with anyone that is. Yes I mean you Dave!!!

I did not do this post for myself but to protect my friends on here, I HAVE TOLD THE TRUTH 100% THE TRUTH and that is all I can do.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
I still cant get over the fact that no jigs are used and everything is just eyeballed this guarantees no consistency and explains a lot perhaps a few of Dave's customers has received something that was eyeballed better than the other and perhaps all Dave's suspension travel numbers were obtained from one of the machines that came out the best of the best as we all can see those numbers are just talk and are irrelevant.

This is like the ATV Racing Long Travel Pilots discussion of long ago all over again I am sure any PilotOdyssey.com's oldest members remember the LT suspension discussions and debates where a few select members who went from a stock Pilot to a LT Pilot defended ATV Racing's crappy setup to the death even in their defense their over sprung crap suspension setup does not work right.

I have no doubt Dave-Co or anybody else could improve on the ATV Racing LT suspension all you have to do is follow one down a trail and watch the suspension NOT MOVE to realize its a cobbled up mess.

Dave-Co might work for some but from what I have seen in two cases so far their is NO CONSISTENCY in his work at least the ATV Racing stuff is jig built and has some consistency.

I am too disappointed this has turned out this way I had plans to approach Dave-Co on a VW build for me I wanted to build up my sons old VW with his suspension tweaks so I could use my VW on some of my ride trips in the areas where licensed autos are allowed but un licensed are not allowed, the plan was to get it mechanically 100% rebuild the Engine go through everything make it a daily driver for 5k miles to test and prove then drive it to Dave-Co's place get the suspension mods then store it at a friends in Parker AZ and just pick it up each time I needed it .


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
I do believe he has jigs for his suspension. From what he told me, there was a tweak he made to the jig to add just a little more camber or castor or whatever I forget. After that he didn't bolt them back into a pilot to test the travel numbers but the balljoint bottoms out a little earlier with this tweak.

As far as the second guy that had an issue, his kit was a 1 off deal. It was wider than every other set made, so that explains why it did not have the same consistency.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
nitrosport_5 wrote:
I do believe he has jigs for his suspension. From what he told me, there was a tweak he made to the jig to add just a little more camber or castor or whatever I forget. After that he didn't bolt them back into a pilot to test the travel numbers but the balljoint bottoms out a little earlier with this tweak.

As far as the second guy that had an issue, his kit was a 1 off deal. It was wider than every other set made, so that explains why it did not have the same consistency.


So he is selling untested and unverified ideas and modifications to unsuspecting customers, that's nice, how fair is that... then when flaws are pointed out they are ignored.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 633
Location: Los Angeles
My travel numbers: 12" rear both left and right. Front: left 16" right 15.8". Was Dave advertising different travel numbers at one point?

Dave does use jigs for the upper and lower control arms and rear hoops. As Nitro said, Dave was finagling caster/camber angles with the ball joint. I think a big part with why Steve's pilot turned out the way it did was the time frame Dave had to build it. Building an LT kit in two days with the power steering mod is nuts. I spent the whole day with Dave helping add the power steering to my pilot.

Not blaming Steve for anything at all but Dave should never had agreed to build an LT kit in two days with the power steering mod.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
cruz_01 wrote:
My travel numbers: 12" rear both left and right. Front: left 16" right 15.8". Was Dave advertising different travel numbers at one point?

Dave does use jigs for the upper and lower control arms and rear hoops. As Nitro said, Dave was finagling caster/camber angles with the ball joint. I think a big part with why Steve's pilot turned out the way it did was the time frame Dave had to build it. Building an LT kit in two days with the power steering mod is nuts. I spent the whole day with Dave helping add the power steering to my pilot.

Not blaming Steve for anything at all but Dave should never had agreed to build an LT kit in two days with the power steering mod.



I am SICK AND TIRED of hearing this time frame EXCUSES.

Dave AGREED 100% on the time frame Dave had like A YEAR advance notice of this project Dave was sent the money agreed on to fund the project nobody is to blame but DAVE for the time constraints the time allotted was set by DAVE !

From what I can see 99% of the things Dave and his kids bitched about were 100% Dave's FAULT!

Anybody PLEASE correct me where I am wrong Steve can give you the complete time line of the whole project and the agreed on terms this was no throw together high pressure deal it was like a YEAR LONG WELL PLANNED PROJECT Dave was given MONTHS of ADVANCE NOTICE and from what I can see dropped the ball time after time.

Also the comments about Steve looking over his shoulder the whole time is bullshit too what did he think Steve was going to do THE WHOLE TIME HE WAS THEIR not watch, not ask questions whilst Dave was working on Steve's baby? This was a huge event for Steve and made at great sacrifice.


Also lets not forget that at the time Dave did this Pilot Dave had already did the same modifications on more than 30 other Pilots don't you think he would know about to the hour how much time it takes to perform the same task and would have had 100% of the parts ready when Steve pulled in his driveway ? Lot of things not adding up here...

Again anybody please feel free to correct me where I am wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:07 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 2147
Location: St. John, Washington
One of the things that I don't understand either.

If someone brought something to.me to build and work on, wouldn't pay me the full amount of money I was owed and agreed on well in advance, and then had issues and wanted me to make things right... Hell no I wouldn't. All of my stuff is paid in full before it leaves my shop and that is how it should be.

IMO if you haven't or do not have any intentions of paying the remainder of the bill, you're on your own as far as any problems. If you can't/won't pay the bill, your item will sit in my shop until its paid for. Try that at a big fab shop. Not gunna happen!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
nitrosport_5 wrote:
One of the things that I don't understand either.

If someone brought something to.me to build and work on, wouldn't pay me the full amount of money I was owed and agreed on well in advance, and then had issues and wanted me to make things right... Hell no I wouldn't. All of my stuff is paid in full before it leaves my shop and that is how it should be.

IMO if you haven't or do not have any intentions of paying the remainder of the bill, you're on your own as far as any problems. If you can't/won't pay the bill, your item will sit in my shop until its paid for. Try that at a big fab shop. Not gunna happen!



He went with the cash in hand and intentions of paying in full once his Pilot was completed as agreed on MONTHS in advanced but the job was NEVER COMPLETED Dave never finished it and left the project with missing and defective parts WHY would anybody pay in full for a unfinished project? From what I have seen and read Dave needs to REFUND at least 50% of the money he collected in advance to cover the cost of fixing all Dave's mistakes.

Steve did not start this project so he could try and screw Dave out of his money Dave SCREWED HIMSELF by performing shoddy work and never finishing what he started again HOW can someone who has done over 30 of these Pilots turn this one into such a mess then try and BLAME the customer for all the problems DAVE CREATED Steve did not create any of these problems he is the VICTIM of Dave-Co!

PLEASE go back read this whole thread over from the start viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15458 PLEASE point out where or how Steve is at fault other than demanding a refund for everything that needs completed after he left, remember Dave told Steve how long he needed to complete this project once he showed up and said he would have everything ready in advance Steve sent him all the stuff Dave requested so Dave could ready the parts, this happen MONTHS IN ADVANCE its not like Dave received the parts the week before and his supplier ran out of what Dave needed Dave had MONTHS to make this go smooth. Why should Steve pay Dave because Dave cant plan his work then work his plan?????


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 633
Location: Los Angeles
Let me clarify my my last post. I don't care if Dave planned on building steves pilot 5 years in advance, it still can't be done in two days to build an LT kit. Don't know what everyone's view is on how Dave does the build but the guy does this in his garage. He's not in some fabrication shop doing this.

Regardless, from what I know, Dave accepted building the lt kit in two days therefore it was Dave's responsibility on the outcome of the kit. So, hoser, I'm not giving excuses to anybody. I think I've made my stance on the whole situation pretty clear from my previous posts. I hope Steve eventually gets his pilot put together and finally get to enjoy it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:45 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: CHICO,CA
after reading this all i can think is paypal protection


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
B S wrote:
after reading this all i can think is paypal protection


Before reading this topic would you have done business with Dave-Co without protection?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
hoser wrote:
B S wrote:
after reading this all i can think is paypal protection


Before reading this topic would you have done business with Dave-Co without protection?


Most likely.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
bullnerd wrote:
hoser wrote:
B S wrote:
after reading this all i can think is paypal protection


Before reading this topic would you have done business with Dave-Co without protection?


Most likely.


Before this revelation I would have done business with Dave-Co without hesitation just like scpilot66 did .


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:11 pm
Posts: 3496
Location: houston
B S wrote:
after reading this all i can think is paypal protection

I don't see no way no how paypal would be any good in this situation.This is just not a transaction for goods but for goods and services,I would bet my paycheck that paypal would not cover this kind of business dealing.
When I bought my pilot from a guy in California on craigslist,I called paypal and asked them if I would be covered if I sent him the money would I be covered and they said no,so I cannot imagine them covering this situation.If your buying goods from a legit company then that's different.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:19 pm
Posts: 18
Hmmm,
Seen this kind of problem with Vespa riders and modifications. Not saying who is right or wrong. It doesn't really matter.

Sometimes its just best to leave things stock. I have to check myself sometimes and not get carried away.
Honda designed a damn fine machine that preforms well. Unless you plan on racing across the desert in the Mint 400 or something similar why fu** with it. Nothing but heartache I say.........
o, and zero riding time.

Steve, Dave-Co, I hope this all works out in the end for everyone but I fear there will be a loser one way or another.........

Chris


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
The pilot is a very fun machine as it sits stock but it does have it drawbacks, going full speed and hitting a woop section with a stock pilot will pucker you up for sure, with the long travel they handle much better, now if you put a bigger Engine in it, you need to improve the suspension. personally for the cost of making a long travel pilot you could pick up something already done with more power and more suspension, that's my $.02 for what it's worth.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:56 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Kuma wrote:
The pilot is a very fun machine as it sits stock but it does have it drawbacks, going full speed and hitting a woop section with a stock pilot will pucker you up for sure, with the long travel they handle much better, now if you put a bigger Engine in it, you need to improve the suspension. personally for the cost of making a long travel pilot you could pick up something already done with more power and more suspension, that's my $.02 for what it's worth.



Hah!!!! Yea, example being the woop section at pismo in the back against the fence......ouch :shock: but yea I agree. If I'm gonna long travel mine, I'd rather upgrade to something else!!!


-Jason


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:45 pm
Posts: 3610
Location: CHICO,CA
PilotLoG0403 wrote:
Kuma wrote:
The pilot is a very fun machine as it sits stock but it does have it drawbacks, going full speed and hitting a woop section with a stock pilot will pucker you up for sure, with the long travel they handle much better, now if you put a bigger Engine in it, you need to improve the suspension. personally for the cost of making a long travel pilot you could pick up something already done with more power and more suspension, that's my $.02 for what it's worth.



Hah!!!! Yea, example being the woop section at pismo in the back against the fence......ouch :shock: but yea I agree. If I'm gonna long travel mine, I'd rather upgrade to something else!!!


-Jason

I can ride over those almost at WOT (Wide Open Throttle)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:44 am
Posts: 541
Damn, what a fiasco!


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