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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
J-CO wrote:
adnoh wrote:
Hello J-CO. I for one I'm saying nothing about your or others work publically, I will if you like. Just posting up hopefully helpful info for scpilot66. I do have to ask why a jig for both sides or did you mean front and back. One jig for the rear is all you need as you flip it over the arm to install on the other side or did I oops. I also want to made it known that 15 to 16" can be had by widening it further in the rear than the 2" of an ATVR set up. I will let others speak about your rear arms and the way they look from set to set. After all I am just a back yard hacker with no formal experience at all. Its easy to pick ones work apart I would rather try to help if I can. The rest is between Dave-co and scpilot66. If scpilot66 tells me my help is not wanted then I will go away until then I will do what I can. So please leave me out of any of your post or quotes. It is good to here you built jigs for the arms.

Andoh



We have jigs for all the Arms, Front top and bottom and the Rear top, that's all this thread is, picking people's work apart.



Am I am picking apart the work hell YEAH now did I pick apart the work done by you on past Pilots NO I never had a reason to question ANYTHING you said or done, it was only after SEEING the work done on the halorising Pilot and now scPilot66 Pilot there that has brought everything you have done into question. The results are not anything close to aerospace fabricator bla bla bla, too much is not working as advertised, basic expectations not even close to being met.

We didnt set the expectations for the quality of work, we didnt do questionable work that leaves everybody scratching their heads as to why its not working as advertised, we didnt set the time table to install the kit etc. now your going to complain?

WHY am I questioning the work because MY WEBSITE was used as a spring board to procure the work! I want anybody researching long travel suspension for their Pilot to know about the GOOD and the BAD and what to look for and what questions to ask in the future regardless of the manufacture or installer, this is the main reason if not the only reason for this website, so owners can gain knowledge.

don't get mad at people on this site get mad at yourself for doing a half ass job and then NOT MAKING THINGS RIGHT we will let the facts speak for themselves.

Nobody is 100% that's a way of life nobody here is expecting 100% but when problems are identified then not resolved that magnifies and further complicates the identified problems.

You have serious customer service problems a trend is evident.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:47 pm 
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Location: Norco, CA
J-CO wrote:


......, that's all this thread is, picking people's work apart.


Not so, this thread is pure entertainment :-)

So sorry for everyone's issues, wish Dave would or could make scpilot happy with the product, would have helped if it was done on the first page. now it's reading material.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:52 pm 
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Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:01 pm 
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Posts: 17
atcdude123 wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.


meh, the multiple happy customers out weigh the one unhappy customer that no amount of work can make happy. Image


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:58 pm
Posts: 2319
Location: near NJ rider
Well, I feel bad for everyone involved.

BUT, I do remember Dave very early on saying if he had any BS from anyone that he didn't care if he ever made another kit or not and would walk away? I also think I questioned some of the comments he made very early on about how some things didn't really matter design wise, and he told me (its here somewhere) that he wouldn't sell me a kit anyway. These are not exact quotes, but close.

In Dave's defense, custom hand fabricated parts are not factory Honda fit and finish. Dave builds racecar parts. Ever go to a race and look close at low/mid level built racecars? Not pretty, like what you see on the internets built by top teams. However, the stuff should still perform/fit as advertised, even if the fab quality is not Honda quality.

Good luck to everyone, I hope you guys can work it out.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 633
Location: Los Angeles
atcdude123 wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.



Are you saying anyone who has done business with Dave is "foolish"? Be careful how your wording what your trying to say..

I don't agree how this all turned out with SC's pilot. I agree with what bullnerd said. I hope things get worked out with Dave and SC and there is clousure to this whole situation.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:54 pm 
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Posts: 887
cruz_01 wrote:
atcdude123 wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.



Are you saying anyone who has done business with Dave is "foolish"? Be careful how your wording what your trying to say..

I don't agree how this all turned out with SC's pilot. I agree with what bullnerd said. I hope things get worked out with Dave and SC and there is clousure to this whole situation.


I'd say anyone who continues to do business with him is a fool! People accusing scpilot66 of being picky. What about this customer??

viewtopic.php?f=123&t=15343

Dave-Co blames the customer.

Now scpilot66 got a raw deal. Dave-Co blames it on the customer through email then falls off the face of the earth. Now his kid is here blaming the customer instead of trying to fix the problems.

Notice a pattern here??? Ray Charles could.

By the way have any of these happy customers actually verify if the amount of travel was as advertised? Or did they have just added new shocks to their ATVR long travel and been just as happy.

I've seen a lot of typing bragging on this kit but the proof is in the pudding. Is it as he advertised it? Why didn't he make scpilot66's with the stuff he paid for? Why isn't J-Co manning up and fixing the problems instead of defending the lies? This is just a shit show. I'd let a judge sort this out like rmesser said. That was the best idea of the whole thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
I would not go so far as to say someone is a fool to do business with Dave, but definitely it is a buyer beware situation.

I would like to hear from all the people that actually have kits by Dave and hear what they have to say, honestly, I know of i think 4, Dave's, I believe that one works great and he is quite happy, cruz_01, are you totally happy, cost reasonable, functions as advertized, no issues and everything looks professional? Halo, was stoked when he got his, then it seems it was not performing just right and customer service was lacking. and we all know scpilot's experience.

Who else and what do you have to say?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:20 pm 
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Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
cruz, was looking at your dave-co pilot, your upper rear A arms are completely different than Halo's and SC's? your have a bend on the back with the bung in the tubing where it belongs not welded to the out side like I see on Halo's and SC's, since seeing them I wondered why it was done that way and not like yours???


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 3:01 am
Posts: 17
atcdude123 wrote:
cruz_01 wrote:
atcdude123 wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.



Are you saying anyone who has done business with Dave is "foolish"? Be careful how your wording what your trying to say..

I don't agree how this all turned out with SC's pilot. I agree with what bullnerd said. I hope things get worked out with Dave and SC and there is clousure to this whole situation.


I'd say anyone who continues to do business with him is a fool! People accusing scpilot66 of being picky. What about this customer??

viewtopic.php?f=123&t=15343

Dave-Co blames the customer.

Now scpilot66 got a raw deal. Dave-Co blames it on the customer through email then falls off the face of the earth. Now his kid is here blaming the customer instead of trying to fix the problems.

Notice a pattern here??? Ray Charles could.

By the way have any of these happy customers actually verify if the amount of travel was as advertised? Or did they have just added new shocks to their ATVR long travel and been just as happy.

I've seen a lot of typing bragging on this kit but the proof is in the pudding. Is it as he advertised it? Why didn't he make scpilot66's with the stuff he paid for? Why isn't J-Co manning up and fixing the problems instead of defending the lies? This is just a shit show. I'd let a judge sort this out like rmesser said. That was the best idea of the whole thread.


what about that customer? having a bent frame combined with him saying "as long as it works" how is that the builders fault?

you want proof of the kit? here entertain yourself for a while bud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVA5OCAY4Zo stock vs long travel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua5eUXcQuf0 Long Travel vs Long Travel on a closed course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIRv8mgxUMU A jump


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:33 pm 
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Posts: 1430
Location: Norco, CA
Kuma wrote:
cruz, was looking at your dave-co pilot, your upper rear A arms are completely different than Halo's and SC's? your have a bend on the back with the bung in the tubing where it belongs not welded to the out side like I see on Halo's and SC's, since seeing them I wondered why it was done that way and not like yours???

looking a little closer, yours does not use the bung and rod end on the upper arm, if the lowers are all adjustable seems like upper adjustment is not needed?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 633
Location: Los Angeles
atcdude123 wrote:
cruz_01 wrote:
atcdude123 wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.



Are you saying anyone who has done business with Dave is "foolish"? Be careful how your wording what your trying to say..

I don't agree how this all turned out with SC's pilot. I agree with what bullnerd said. I hope things get worked out with Dave and SC and there is clousure to this whole situation.


I'd say anyone who continues to do business with him is a fool! People accusing scpilot66 of being picky. What about this customer??

viewtopic.php?f=123&t=15343

Dave-Co blames the customer.

Now scpilot66 got a raw deal. Dave-Co blames it on the customer through email then falls off the face of the earth. Now his kid is here blaming the customer instead of trying to fix the problems.

Notice a pattern here??? Ray Charles could.

By the way have any of these happy customers actually verify if the amount of travel was as advertised? Or did they have just added new shocks to their ATVR long travel and been just as happy.

I've seen a lot of typing bragging on this kit but the proof is in the pudding. Is it as he advertised it? Why didn't he make scpilot66's with the stuff he paid for? Why isn't J-Co manning up and fixing the problems instead of defending the lies? This is just a shit show. I'd let a judge sort this out like rmesser said. That was the best idea of the whole thread.


I'll make simple for you ATC because your too retarded understand what I'm saying. My pilot works, my suspension is as advertised of what Dave offered. What happened to SC isn't right and I do not agree with how the situation turned out. You take a chance working with someone who does this on their spare time in a garage. READ BULLNERDS POST. He says it best. Dave isn't working in some fabrication shop where he's using cnc or laser cutting machines. I AM ALSO NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HIM EITHER on how he handles SC's situation.

I'll make this clear so you can't spin my words into some bullshit tangent: I do not consider myself a fool for working with Dave. If you want, consider me one of the lucky Dave-Co LT customers. I did have some issues that needed to be worked out and Dave took care of it. I also will say it is sad to see how SC's situation was handled. I am one of few members here that has spoken to SC directly and he did as much as he could before having to start this post. Hoser said it well about what the forum is about. It's about spreading info to fellow member's about the good and the bad about products and services to other members here. Some members get ousted wrongfully and some get ousted rightfully so. That's not my decision to decipher that.

If you and rmesser are going to offer the situation to go to court, why don't you pay for SC's legal fees to go to court then. Not going to, are you... Dumb ideas that do not go anywhere.

SC provided plenty to show how the situation was handled between him and Dave-co. I think it's pretty safe to say where the situation lies and who was in the wrong here. I don't understand why the topic keeps going further and further until you start throwing dumb comments that insult me when I had nothing to do with this. Now here I am wasting my time type all this!! BTW, people shouldn't entertain J-CO's comments either. He's not helping his dad's reputation by the comments he's posting.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 633
Location: Los Angeles
Kuma wrote:
Kuma wrote:
cruz, was looking at your dave-co pilot, your upper rear A arms are completely different than Halo's and SC's? your have a bend on the back with the bung in the tubing where it belongs not welded to the out side like I see on Halo's and SC's, since seeing them I wondered why it was done that way and not like yours???

looking a little closer, yours does not use the bung and rod end on the upper arm, if the lowers are all adjustable seems like upper adjustment is not needed?


My original rear upper arms used bushings instead of using heims. I didn't like the arms because I couldn't adjust the upper arms. Dave made me a new set of arms that use heims with dave's bungs he made using a welded nut.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22512
Location: Chicago
J-CO wrote:
atcdude123 wrote:
cruz_01 wrote:
atcdude123 wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.



Are you saying anyone who has done business with Dave is "foolish"? Be careful how your wording what your trying to say..

I don't agree how this all turned out with SC's pilot. I agree with what bullnerd said. I hope things get worked out with Dave and SC and there is clousure to this whole situation.


I'd say anyone who continues to do business with him is a fool! People accusing scpilot66 of being picky. What about this customer??

viewtopic.php?f=123&t=15343

Dave-Co blames the customer.

Now scpilot66 got a raw deal. Dave-Co blames it on the customer through email then falls off the face of the earth. Now his kid is here blaming the customer instead of trying to fix the problems.

Notice a pattern here??? Ray Charles could.

By the way have any of these happy customers actually verify if the amount of travel was as advertised? Or did they have just added new shocks to their ATVR long travel and been just as happy.

I've seen a lot of typing bragging on this kit but the proof is in the pudding. Is it as he advertised it? Why didn't he make scpilot66's with the stuff he paid for? Why isn't J-Co manning up and fixing the problems instead of defending the lies? This is just a shit show. I'd let a judge sort this out like rmesser said. That was the best idea of the whole thread.


what about that customer? having a bent frame combined with him saying "as long as it works" how is that the builders fault?

you want proof of the kit? here entertain yourself for a while bud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVA5OCAY4Zo stock vs long travel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua5eUXcQuf0 Long Travel vs Long Travel on a closed course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIRv8mgxUMU A jump


The performance of other Pilots is NOT THE ISSUE.

How happy other owners are with their Pilots IS NOT THE ISSUE.

STOP trying to SPIN your bullshit and ADDRESS THE ISSUES that started this whole conversation.

Man up or shut up its that simple nobody is buying your bullshit.

The FACT is you took over $5000.00 and delivered a POS with problems, YOU created ALL the problems and created the drama unfolding before your eyes your the ROOT CAUSE of the problem and now are trying to DEMONIZE others for your MISTAKES.

Your never going to talk this away like you and your dad seem to be doing, ever notice when a child gets into trouble the first thing they try to do is talk their way out of the trouble, how many times you ever seen that work out, time to change your strategy.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:57 am 
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Posts: 887
cruz_01 wrote:
atcdude123 wrote:
cruz_01 wrote:
atcdude123 wrote:
Well it's pretty obvious Dave-Co isn't going to reply. He was logged in on Sunday. Looks like he took the money and ran. Only thing left is legal action or just let it go. One good thing is that hopefully everyone who was thinking about giving this guy money will read this and see what kind of products and service you'll get if your foolish enough to do business with him.



Are you saying anyone who has done business with Dave is "foolish"? Be careful how your wording what your trying to say..

I don't agree how this all turned out with SC's pilot. I agree with what bullnerd said. I hope things get worked out with Dave and SC and there is clousure to this whole situation.


I'd say anyone who continues to do business with him is a fool! People accusing scpilot66 of being picky. What about this customer??

viewtopic.php?f=123&t=15343

Dave-Co blames the customer.

Now scpilot66 got a raw deal. Dave-Co blames it on the customer through email then falls off the face of the earth. Now his kid is here blaming the customer instead of trying to fix the problems.

Notice a pattern here??? Ray Charles could.

By the way have any of these happy customers actually verify if the amount of travel was as advertised? Or did they have just added new shocks to their ATVR long travel and been just as happy.

I've seen a lot of typing bragging on this kit but the proof is in the pudding. Is it as he advertised it? Why didn't he make scpilot66's with the stuff he paid for? Why isn't J-Co manning up and fixing the problems instead of defending the lies? This is just a shit show. I'd let a judge sort this out like rmesser said. That was the best idea of the whole thread.


I'll make simple for you ATC because your too retarded understand what I'm saying. My pilot works, my suspension is as advertised of what Dave offered. What happened to SC isn't right and I do not agree with how the situation turned out. You take a chance working with someone who does this on their spare time in a garage. READ BULLNERDS POST. He says it best. Dave isn't working in some fabrication shop where he's using cnc or laser cutting machines. I AM ALSO NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HIM EITHER on how he handles SC's situation.

I'll make this clear so you can't spin my words into some bullshit tangent: I do not consider myself a fool for working with Dave. If you want, consider me one of the lucky Dave-Co LT customers. I did have some issues that needed to be worked out and Dave took care of it. I also will say it is sad to see how SC's situation was handled. I am one of few members here that has spoken to SC directly and he did as much as he could before having to start this post. Hoser said it well about what the forum is about. It's about spreading info to fellow member's about the good and the bad about products and services to other members here. Some members get ousted wrongfully and some get ousted rightfully so. That's not my decision to decipher that.

If you and rmesser are going to offer the situation to go to court, why don't you pay for SC's legal fees to go to court then. Not going to, are you... Dumb ideas that do not go anywhere.

SC provided plenty to show how the situation was handled between him and Dave-co. I think it's pretty safe to say where the situation lies and who was in the wrong here. I don't understand why the topic keeps going further and further until you start throwing dumb comments that insult me when I had nothing to do with this. Now here I am wasting my time type all this!! BTW, people shouldn't entertain J-CO's comments either. He's not helping his dad's reputation by the comments he's posting.


In glad your pilot works and your happy. Perhaps your too retarded to understand what I'm saying. I'm saying anyone who gives this guy money after this whole deal is a fool. Your welcome to send him your money and when you come here saying you got ripped off I'll get to laugh. If he's willing to take one strangers money and run off he'll take any strangers money...

As for legal action I'd bring the whole deal to an attorney an see what he thinks can be done. The man won't be able to avoid the judge. He'll have to answer why he used materials that weren't as advertised and paid for. Why he took the job if he couldn't do it right in the time frame they agreed on. I'm done littering up the post but if you need further explanation inbox me.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:18 am 
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Location: houston
Whoa cruz_01 and atcdude123,everybody getting a little touchy here,no sense in you 2 getting in a fight over this.When I was reading the thread I did not get the feeling atcdude was calling anyone foolish who has dealt with dave-co,just future customers beware.Both of you should say I'm sorry to each other and move past the retarded stuff


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:37 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles
I didn't see the "after" in anything you said but maybe I'm too retarded to read I guess...

Anyway, I posted about checking my ball joints and travel because I needed to replace my boots. All four ball joints are in functioning condition. When I say functioning, I mean they are not sloppy loose but not "NEW" tight either. I don't know how much the ball joint itself is affected by high heat while their being welded to new arms. I've never had the oppurtunity to check a ball joint before and after being subdued to high heat.

I have to keep in mind, the ball joints that are on my pilot are the original ball joints that are 25 years old. I have to admit though for how old the joints are, it's amazing how they still work and not falling apart. I have seen/felt pilot ball joint that were severly worn so I have something to compare to. Needless to say, I'm comfortable using the ball joints I have on the arms Dave-Co made.

For the travel, I do have 16" of travel on both sides with the shock removed. There is no binding throughout the travel.

Please note that I'm speaking for myself and myself only. As I mentioned before and I'll say it again, I am not pleased how SC's situation came about and I hope some resolution between SC and Dave can be made.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:56 pm 
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Location: Norco, CA
Cruz, this is a little off topic from the original post but this may help you.
back in October I had blown the front wheel off my pilot, after putting it back together I found a lot of slop in the upper ball joint, it should be easy to get an idea on the upper condition, if it's real bad with everything assembled, just grab the upper arm and try to wiggle it up and down, mine had probably a 1/16" slop in it, my front end is now replaced with quad style ball joints upper and lower, seems to work fine.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:57 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles
Kuma wrote:
Cruz, this is a little off topic from the original post but this may help you.
back in October I had blown the front wheel off my pilot, after putting it back together I found a lot of slop in the upper ball joint, it should be easy to get an idea on the upper condition, if it's real bad with everything assembled, just grab the upper arm and try to wiggle it up and down, mine had probably a 1/16" slop in it, my front end is now replaced with quad style ball joints upper and lower, seems to work fine.


I did exactly what you did. Before I jacked the pilot up, I moved the arms up and down to check if there was any play. Didn't find any. I checked again after I lifted the front end off the ground and there was no play. I think the ball joint are in pretty decent condition considering their age. Their not sloppy and loose but their not tight as if they were brand new..


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Location: Lincolnshire , england
Don't know if this has any relevance but Dave emailed me or sent a message on the 26th of March saying he had got back after flying to deal with his mother passing away on the 19th of March.
I would hope someone would not make a story like that up so maybe you will hear from him soon?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:18 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Meggitt wrote:
Don't know if this has any relevance but Dave emailed me or sent a message on the 26th of March saying he had got back after flying to deal with his mother passing away on the 19th of March.
I would hope someone would not make a story like that up so maybe you will hear from him soon?


Surprised his son did not make mention of this.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:05 pm 
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Location: corona
I found this on eBay guy says he has more than 10 available


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:41 pm 
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halorising wrote:
I found this on eBay guy says he has more than 10 available


Pilot rear ball joint viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9978&view=previous I wonder if DC or LEE can source one of these using their parts guys knowledge and connections?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:14 pm
Posts: 62
Location: Lincolnshire , england
The irony


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:31 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5559
Location: New Jersey
Hi. I showed this to Gregg and he has read the entire thread. I am typing for him as he did therapy yesterday and his hands are killing him.
As far as his kit? is concerned he has had 0 problems with Dave and the kit he contracted Dave to build for him. He says he has not measured the travel? to date but for him it was never a issue. Other then a slight communication issue( we are in nj, Dave is on west coast) he got exactly what he paid for. He wished the project that Steve had contracted Dave to do went better and hopes the 2 sides can communicate to resolve the pending issues.
That said he still has a pilot with Dave and to our knowledge all parts and associated hardware is exactly as asked for and we are looking forward to shipping it back here. I hope this answers any questions. Please forgive our lack of posting, we have several issues here that take a bit of priority over this stuff.


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