And why hasnt your dad weighed in on this?

Already did , that pilot was done the exact same as ours , including the two in both my videos of them , perhaps the pilot needs to be put together and driven before being judged

Ok sir lets have pics of your to compare to what scpilot66 say his looks like. Then we will know. Take off you shock and get the numbers to compare to what scpilot66 says his is and I will ask scpilot66 to post pics to match your for comparison. If were wrong than were wrong. Lets let the pics and numbers speak the truth. No doubt yours runs and sound good. If for some reason scpilot66 has taken the numbers wrong can you help us and him understand.
Thank you
Richard.

I'm not taking any sides in this argument at all, but I am flummoxed by the back and forth on these issues.

I would highly suggest to anyone sending parts out for a build, that they mark and note their parts...use a metal stamp, a die grinder, etc. and let the builder know so they have a reference...For instance..."Lower left BJ is marked A", etc.

Then clean them up and take photos of the items before they are sent out to document condition.

That way there can be very little doubt as too any inadvertent mix ups and avoid any he said...he said scenarios

Also, everyone should get a fully detailed list of items to be delivered and work to be performed..be specific, drill it down and follow it up in a comprehensive detailed e-mail. What the builder is responsible for providing, what services are to be performed, what is to be delivered in a detailed specification, travel numbers, etc. Also be clear on what the client is supposed to provide and when. Get sample photos if necessary.

Neither party should be vague or cannot / will-not provide the info. I don't care if it's a hobby transaction for the good of the Pilot world, or whatever. If the exchange is that important to anyone, detail it out...both sides

Does this sound overly burdensome for a hobby transaction?..yes, but it will save a mile of problems if there happens to be any disagreement

Strange..can't edit the post

But I meant to finish with..I hope this transaction works out for everyone involved

ya looks like that feature is gone its quite annoying

I noticed this edit issue as well.
It seems the edit feature times out ??
When I tried to edit one of my posts it said "this post can no longer be edited". Not sure if I got the exact wording on that.

One thing with the ball joints. They are welded to the new arms. So, the heat from that can male them loose. Up. Sure you may have had brand new tight ball joints to begin with but after welding and getting that heat they will likely loosen up.

When putting my pilot together, I ran into a couple issues and they ended up not being Dave's fault, but the axle assembly of the outer joint messed up. Causing the axle to act as if it were too short or the upper arm too long. Dave went out of his way sending back and forth different upper Arms until we found the issue. He has always been a stand up guy you just need to be willing to work with him.

If you read this thread then WHY you playing your games their are serious issues and problems that need resolved no smart ass replies required if you have nothing to add to this thread to resolve any problems I strongly suggest you shut up and butt out what kind of POS comes here to flaunt a working machine and bragging up their machine when you know damn well scPilot66 has a long list of questions and problems with his? your implications you put in your post simply do not work were looking for problems resolved.

This is NONE of my business but its something that needs to be said, right now Dave-co looks alike a scam artist, then you include the problems halorising had with his Pilot and the work Dave-co did on his Pilot WE SEE A TREND in not only the design, quality and workmanship but Dave-Co's ability to resolve what appears to be minor problems, it looks to me like Dave-co took the money and ran it looks like Dave-co is all talk and no action if you read Dave-Co's post on this site he talks a really good game but has not delivered.

Feel free to correct ME - us (members of this site) where we are wrong resolution to this problem needs to happen sooner than later.

NOT ALWAYS!

This is the first time I recall anybody mentioning the fact that welding up the used ball joints makes them loose I thought I expressed my concerns in the very early days of Dave-Co's recycling ball joints and being able to replace ball joints in the future.

Pretty sure scPilot66 has been waiting since the day he left Dave-co's house to "work with him" and also what prompted scPilot66 to create this thread.

Maybe scPilot66 is a idiot and cant read a tape measure but I sincerely doubt it I know him personally I have spend a several days with him in his automotive shop on a few different trips through the town he resides and witnessed his mechanic skills first hand, he is no dummy his attention to details is second to none. He owns a successful automotive repair business in a major US city and has been a qualified auto mechanic most his life. He is very a detail orientated mechanic.

lets see if i can name the issues he is having here ,

First - the stupid ball joints loosen up after being welded on, how do i know? cause i welded them, our FOUR long travel pilots all have loosened up ball joints because of the welds, there is no way around it, we have a tub of water near by after we lay a small bead to cool it off to help control the heat input to the ball joint but it only helps so much.

Second - I don't know much about that, but what i do know is even our pilots have mild steel hoops because if the pilot goes over, what do u want to give first? your frame? or the shock hoops.

3rd - Not sure what they worked out either with the bungs vs nuts being welded in

4th - Not sure on that either so will not comment

5th - we had so much going on we forgot steering stops, how can u expect everything to be perfect trying to do a whole kit in 3 days? be realistic, every other pilot we have done we had for WEEKS

6th - Not sure on that either so will not comment

7th - Not sure on that either so will not comment

8th - Not sure how the numbers are off if they even are, haven't seen proof of those numbers yet, like said with only 3 days to do everything somethings wont be PERFECT like he wants

I am not sure what Dave-Co and He had worked out Parts wise for his Pilot , but with multiple other people loving there Long Travel pilots, this is not our First Rodeo

I apologize for not posting sooner, I did not want to post over Easter Weekend.

I will start here with a few examples of the things that sold me on Dave's kit, all of these are quotes from Dave in Dave-Co's world. Here is a link.
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=10621&start=50

Quote from Dave on 8/28/2012

Ok, took a few hours last night and made some significant changes, a ATV racing pilot according to Niel has a 1 inch spacer in a 12 inch shock to limit its travel because I found out (not by him)no consideration at all was given to the top arm wiping out the pivots because of the way they made them. The pictures above were with a 1 inch shim in the shock, removed the shim because my top arms have no chance of destroying the pivots because my arms are designed to give maximum wheel travel. I wanted to see what was so special about ATV racings rear top arm so I orderd a pair to see what is what. Do they know something I don't? I have looked at countless topics on the rear of these things, there is a whole lotta BS being thrown about wheel travel. The rear arm tells the complete story as well as the top pivots, anybody making hi number claims with out mounting the arm tubing the way these are and not touching the pivot cannot ever get near the numbers I read. NO WAY!! I put the ATV racing arm on my pilot and found the truth about the spacer in the shock, with out it the pivots will be toast the first time you bottom the rear with out it. I cut the shock mounts off, removed the 1 inch shims from the shocks, put my arm back on, changed the tubes that run from the seat back to the wheel(again a very important piece for wheel travel that is a different length than used with the ATV arm, mine is a couple inches longer) and the ATV arm on the shelf to collect dust, now my pilot has right at 14 inches of travel, strokes the whole 12 inch shock and if I had a longer custom made shock I could get 15 inches of rear wheel travel easy. The 12 inch shock still limits the rear up travel, but a 14 will be to long, I have the rear at 28 degrees on the cv joint, could go more but don't want to chance it even though the cvs turn perfect at 32 degrees! don't want to tempt fate and brake a cv. I am still lacking close to a couple of inches up so I am thinking about cutting up a 14 inch travel fox and making a custom shock. With my top arm design with the wheel pushed back to straighten the axle out the axle which relaxed the suspension, the axle will travel up to a 16th of a inch from hitting the battery mount!! with the tire on and does not do a funky move up top That is with out a shock on, but a custom length will get that extra travel that is there for the taking!!! I already have new 14s on the way, and will make a 13ish travel shock that should give me what I want. Might be able to use a shim in the 14 to get my desired length!?!? Been a lot of fun playing with this with my kids, going to do this to another of my 3 pilots. It surprises me that people who make this stuff all the time like ATV make the arm like they do and limit so much for what?? I do not claim to be the pilot expert, but I do like to gain all I can when I put my mind to it and this looks like it will work well.

Quote from Dave on 11/2/2012

thought I would give a update, the pilot is finished, took it to the desert this past weekend and to say it is amazing just is not enough. The front end ended up with 16 inches of usable wheeltravel with the stock ball joints with 2 stage Fox X coilover shocks that are 19.5 inches eye to eye and as I stated before the rear is at 14. with fox coilovers. I can still get more by redoing the shock length. My friend has 2 full blown ATV long travel??? pilots that he has no intrest in after driving this one, he is ready to scrap both front and rear arms and shocks and copy this one. I bought the front shocks off a guy that had them on a dracart and was selling some airshocks on e-bay. I have to say the front is absolutely amazing. Took a bit to adjust the steering but after some heavy head scratching trying to keep it from wanting to go left everytime we got the alignment real close to 1/4 toed in, a few wrong? adjustments with what I thought was to much toe in it was like magic, the pilot can be driven through the roughest stuff one handed like it is on rails. No pull to one side, no jerking of the wheel, my 12 year old son had a ball in it. I will have my son post some photos tomorrow, With a 100 percent stock Engine it will eat my friends long travel 500s for lunch where suspension is needed. In plain words his suck LOL. WAY to stiff, way to much rear kick I completly guessed on the front shock location on the front arms and made new mounts up top but it strokes the entire shock and bottoms the shock just before the ball joint tops out. My friend took some video of it on a long woop section with holes out at Barstow, the pilot stays level with the wheels doing the work, then took video of his, I don't think his wheels move,. Mine was using 3/4 of the rear shocks I guessed at the spring adjustment, a little adjustment and was able to use all the rear travel and at the end it was really fun to drive, ZERO kick in the rear, the front never hit the ground but soaked it all up the only thing that limits it is its length now. With some HP this thing would be something. Total expenditure was 284 each for the rear coilover foxes with springs costing 40 buck each, the front shocks were 250 for the pair about 1500 new from what I understand, I won the bump steer kit on e-bay for 178 and I have MAYBE a hundred fifty dollars in all the front and rear arms and links plus I used top quality hymes including making the tie rods with them because the stock tie rod ends cannot come close to reaching as far as they need to. The stock front and rear brake lines worked fine and DO NOT need to be changed. I have learned a lot about what and what not to do the last month or 2 and have had a great time doing it. I feel bad for the people who have sunk fortunes into what they thought were top long travel pilots, 6-7 grand, not even close, or should I say inches away and so much to stiff you cant use 1/4 of the limited travel you have. Thank you hoser and all the input you and others have given me. Now its onto pilot number 2. hoser I will get back to you on the wheels, my friend asked me about them before I saw you had asked. I will let you know! Thanks again---Dave

Quote from Dave on 7/2/2013
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=12253

The new top arm does several things, less camber change threw the travel which mine travels close to 14 inches in the rear, I run 30 degrees down on the cv ny axle stops about 1/8 from hitting the stock battery box going up one of the big things this arm prevents is blowing the pivots off your pilot if you use a 12 inch travel shock or usa a ATV racing top ARM. The ATV long travel arms I bought would require the use of a 1 inch spacer inside the shock or a very high dollar special length shock to fit ATV racings set up so you will not blow the pivots off the frame as the shock is the up and down stops of the wheel. My shocks do not stand straight up as I have seen on ATV pilots giving them a 1 to 1 ratio basicly. mine tilt in and forward allowing the wheel to out travel the shock going up threw the travel. If I took the time to work with shock cans and and shock shaft lengths my arm would allow 16 or more travel in the rear with out ever threatening the rear pivots. ATV has left a ton of travel that can never be had with the rear of there long travel if you want to call it that, sure you can make the hoopd to allow 30 degrees of drop all day long with there arm but what good is 8-9 degree axle angle max up?. Mine also ads about 3 inches to the wheelbase pushing the rear wheel back 3 inches where I have found it to be a lot happier threw the travel.. ATV racing is absolutely nothing more than a stock pilot rear end stretched 2.2 inches wider .The axle goes forward and the wheel is in the stock location, only out 2.2 inches out. Hope these answers help, I have spent a lot of time figuring this stuff out, I have built over 10 different arm desings, wasted hundreds of dollars of expencive 4130 and changed shock hoops locations to find more wheeltravel and to find where the wheel really travels the best. The pilot rear end is really a funky dumb desing, I have no idea what they were smoking in Japan when they designed that rear end. Good luck

Quote from Dave on 10/15/2013
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=12913

Putting the finishing touches on my, 3rd long travel pilot,, hope you like them. Engine is fully rebuilt stock for now, 12 inch fox coil overs in the rear, Fox zero pro X snow mobile shocks up front. Front has stock ball joints 4.5 inches wider with a tad over 15 inches of usable travel with hi angle hymes for the tie rod ends. The front far out travels stock tie rod ends. Rear with 12 inch shocks a tad over 13. Rear is pushed back nearly 4 inches to increase the wheel base and is where it travels with zero bind on the ball joint. with out the shock it travel near 15/ I am going to work with shock lengths to get it all some day. I made this pilot an inch wider than my others per side and made the axles out of 2 sets of pilot axles to give it a try . If any one is interested in a kit let me know, I can make front or rear or both fpr a fraction of what is sold by... ....

Quote from Dave on 1/27/2014
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=13519

Where it is sitting up front is where it sits the wheels still drop about 4 inches farther down. When I say the front has 16 inches of travel I mean it. ATV racing limits the travel so much front and back it is beyond belief, those are ATV arms in front on that pilot that I did a bit of work on because the arms I had made for it went onto halorisings pilot, these came off his pilot bent with bent rod ends, I was lazy and did not want to build another set at the time. NO atv racing long? travel pilot comes close to sitting like that and are so stupidly oversprung it makes me cringe thinking about it. I have worked on 4 pilots made by them all had 250 springs up front TWO FIFTY! Mine has 90 pound springs up front my others have 110 in front. ATV made pilots use shorter shock up front and suck the front end up when mounting the shorter shock that amounts to at least 5 inches at the wheel losing 5 inches of travel right off the bat, but with a 250 spring AND a shorter shock it really doesnt matter I guess. If you own one and don't believe me or what I am saying take your front ahock off and see how far the wheel drops after you do. I cannot understand that, they put a big Vw ball joint on front and suck the front end up to mount the shock, why bother putting a ball joint like that on if your going to do that. We raced class 11 vws with no limiters on the ball joints for years with over a half inch rotation on the front tubes and did not brake ball joints running 700 15 tires, all this has to support is a 23-7-10 atv tire. The rear on the ATV pilots I have worked on are done the same way, taking a limited travel desing by there making and limiting it even more then sticking a spring the size of my leg on the back that cant let the rear use the little travel it has, unless you drop it off a house. As far as fl 350s, I have a few mods that can make a 350 perform twice as well as it does now, don't waste money on stupid works shocks, they are a giant waste of money buying them new

Any response or resolution from Dave-Co?

Sorry, should have been a little more clear.
Any direct response or resolution from Dave-Co?

I will start from the very beginning, on 10/15/2013 I contacted Dave about purchasing one of his kits. This was his reply back on 10/15/2013, his count below on the heims and weld in bungs was off, there are 32 of each.

Hi Steve, I can make you front arms with the ball joints out of your stock arms rear arms I need your stock top arms, all the links the bump steer all out of 4130 the shock hoops minus hymes minus shocks for a thousand bucks. My pilot uses 24 hymes, I personally use the best, most use the cheapest, the best cost me 23 dollars each, as well as 24 weld in theaded bungs at10 bucks each those are included in the thousand dollar kit, if you want shocks springs the total kit about 3 grand for what I put on m,y pilots, less than half of ATVs kit. It is hard to get around the cost of the shocks. I bought the front shocks from country cat off of e-bay and cost about 900 bucks alone with spring and all that is required I would not run any other, they are adjustable comp and rebound and are the perfect length for the front travel and are unreal in handling. The rear shocks are over 400 each, I . The springs are about 55 each for the rear and it takes 4. This is me not making anything on shocks spring and hymes and spacers and figure 350 for LT axles. I have given real prices for everything at my prices, its not cheap but consider ATV gets about 7500 and in my opinion is a rape and I feel my set up far out does theirs. I am building a rear kit for Rusty(Shabadaba) for his pilot right now. Feel free to call me @ 951-696-0219 once you go long travel you will ask yourself what took so long lol-- thanks for the intrust---Dave

In December of 2013 I contacted Dave about going ahead with the kit, I had a very long conversation with him over the phone, I explained to Dave that I was a perfectionist and that I wanted a show room perfect kit, that I wanted HIM to make my kit and do all the welds himself, I knew that his sons had been helping him and doing a lot of the welding and I wanted to insure that I had the very best welds. I told him to please not rush on my kit when he built it that I was more concerned with quality. I was very clear about this. Dave agreed to do my kit himself and assured me that I was going to have a super pilot when done. He also told me that the price on the kit had gone up to $1300.00 for everything quoted above. He did give me a reason why the price increase but I can not remember exactly what it was, I think because of all the work to do the rear arms but I am not positive on that.

On 12/20/2013 I sent Dave a down payment of $750.00.

No Sir.

Damn, what a bummer:(

A lot of the conversations between Dave and I were over the phone, below are copy and pasted emails between he and I from my personal email. I have taken out the email addresses and last names, all written conversations between Dave and I are word for word as originally sent. I have added some notes in between some of the emails.


On 12/21/2013 Dave sent me this message below, this was to my regular email not through the forum.

Dave
12/21/13
To: Steve

Well Steve I made myself sick today, all the hymes(rod ends) I have bought for my pilots have been a little here a little there not ever at one time, I almost chocked when he told me right at 700 bucks for all the good hymes, including tax but when I think about it the long travel pilots of mine have a total of 32 hymes each pilot(OUCH!!!!!!!) start saving, in my opinion it is worth it to have the best and when you are done you will have a super pilot! Just got the good word from (afastcar) his kit arrived and he seams happy so I am happy about that, talk soon-----Dave
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I agreed to using the best heims, so this made the total $2000.00 with the kit.

Dave needed me to send 2 front upper ball joints, 2 front lower ball joints and 2 rear swing arm pieces where the ball joint mounts. He needed these parts to build my kit. I went through and very thoroughly checked a little over 3 full sets of front arm ball joints, I did not want to do it but I ended up cutting mint arms from my wife's pilot and I mean mint, the ball joints were tight and in very excellent condition. I went through every rear upper swing arm I own 7 or 8 of them, I put a rear ball joint in each and every one to pick 2 that the ball joint set the same depth in. I wanted my kit to be the very very best it could be. On 2/21/14 I mailed these parts to Dave, he received them on 2/24/14. I told Dave in a phone conversation what I went through and cut up for these parts, I made it very clear for him to please be sure that my parts were not mixed up with any others, He agreed and assured me that my stuff would be kept safe.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Below I have copy and pasted some messages between us, these are from my regular email not through the forum.

Steve
2/21/14
To: Dave

Hello Dave, I mailed my parts for all of the arms today tracking # 9405503699300241783501 USPS priority.
I did remove the ball joint boots.

I also have $700.00 to send to you is paypal OK.

With the $750.00 I have already sent and the $700.00 I will send now, the total sent to you will be $1450.00.

This should leave me owing $550.00 using all the best heims, please let me know if this is correct.

About how long before you will have my kit complete so I know when I need to have the rest of the money, I have decided to have you ship it to me. I still plan on having you install it I just do not know when I can go out there and this will give me time to buy the shocks and have you valve them for me.

How much do you think it will cost to ship the kit.

Thank you, Steve.


Steve
2/24/14
To: Dave

Hello Dave, I hope the race went well.

Did you get my message below that I sent, please read.

The parts for my arms show to be delivered, did they arrive safe.

Please let me know on the paypal and I will send the money right away.

Thank you, Steve.

Dave
2/24/14
To: Steve

Hi Steve, my wife just handed me the box so yes they arrived fine, Paypal is fine also. I will start on your things in a week or so, give me a few weeks or so to finish your kit, it will most likly be sooner, I give myself some leeway because I got a lot going on but I am going to start bending up a bunch of stuff in the next few days. I am guessing 50-60 bucks to ship it to you, the shock hoops are what jumps the cost up because they are awkward in size and a pain to ship. When you are ready for the hymes let me know. If you are going to bring me a frame at some point the shock hoops could be made at that time, let me know---Dave

On 2/24/14 I sent Dave another $700.00 for a total of $1450.00 sent.

Below I have copy and pasted a message I sent to Dave right after sending the $700.00 and below that is his reply.

Steve
2/24/14
To: Dave

Hello Dave, money sent please let me know that you received it.

Please no rush on my kit, I would rather you take your time and make it show room perfect please.

This should make $1450.00 that I have paid, that leaves me owing $550.00 + shipping with the best heims. Please let me know if this is correct.

I really do not know when I will have the money to go out there, if you would please ship me the whole kit.
Is it better to make the shock hoops with the frame there or were you think of the shipping cost?

After I get the kit and heims paid for and shipped back to me then I will start working on getting the shocks.

Thank you, Steve.



Dave
2/24/14
To: Steve

I was thinking on the shock hoops making those when you bring the frame, it does not take me long to make them and like I said they are a pain in the behind to ship. If you want them there its no problem but if your plan is to bring me the frame at some point they can stay here, in truth I would make them when you would be on your way. It is up to you. I will take extra time, thank you---Dave


Below are some more messages between Dave and I, they are copy and pasted from my regular email.

At this time I was wanting my kit to be shipped to me.


Steve
3/08/14
To: Dave

Hello Dave I hope you are well, I have the rest of the money for the best heims.

The kit + the Best heims is $2000.00. correct?

I have sent $1450.00 so that should leave me owing $550.00 + shipping, please let me know if this correct.

I can send the money over through paypal including shipping, please let me know if this is OK and how much I should send for shipping.

If you do not mind I would like to go ahead and have you ship the hoops to me as well.

Next is the shocks, I want to buy them from you and have you work your magic on them please, can you send me prices so that I can start saving for them.

How is my kit coming along, no rush at all just curious.

Thank you and have a nice night, Steve.


Dave
3/08/14
To: Steve

Hi Steve, I have the front arms nearly done! this kit is a lot of work, your kit may be my last. let me call my supply house before you send me
anything, it takes a bit of time to get them all together. I will call them on Monday and let you know when I find out---Dave


Steve
3/08/14
To: Dave

Hello Dave, sounds good Sir.

Again, no rush on my kit Dave please take your time. I would rather have perfection then a rush job.

I sure hope there is not a problem with getting the best heims.

Thank you, Steve.

I did contact Dave and try to resolve things before posting anything. Everything that has happened is the last thing I expected or wanted!!!
These are my private messages to Dave and his replies back to me, they are all exactly as sent and received. The first Quote from Dave is from 10/15/2013 when I first contacted Dave-Co about his kit, I sent Dave this to remind him what I paid for.

Below is my first message to Dave.


Message subject: Hello Dave
From: scpilot66
Sent: Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:22 pm
To: Dave-Co
Message
Dave-Co wrote:
Hi Steve, I can make you front arms with the ball joints out of your stock arms rear arms I need your stock top arms, all the links the bump steer all out of 4130 the shock hoops minus hymes minus shocks for a thousand bucks. My pilot uses 24 hymes, I personally use the best, most use the cheapest, the best cost me 23 dollars each, as well as 24 weld in theaded bungs at10 bucks each those are included in the thousand dollar kit, if you want shocks springs the total kit about 3 grand for what I put on m,y pilots, less than half of ATVs kit. It is hard to get around the cost of the shocks. I bought the front shocks from country cat off of e-bay and cost about 900 bucks alone with spring and all that is required I would not run any other, they are adjustable comp and rebound and are the perfect length for the front travel and are unreal in handling. The rear shocks are over 400 each, I . The springs are about 55 each for the rear and it takes 4. This is me not making anything on shocks spring and hymes and spacers and figure 350 for LT axles. I have given real prices for everything at my prices, its not cheap but consider ATV gets about 7500 and in my opinion is a rape and I feel my set up far out does theirs. I am building a rear kit for Rusty(Shabadaba) for his pilot right now. Feel free to call me @ 951-696-0219 once you go long travel you will ask yourself what took so long lol-- thanks for the intrust---Dave


Hello Dave, you had told me if there was anything that I was not happy with to contact you and you would take care of it. OK, I am contacting you.
If you read the message you sent to me above in 2013 on your kit it states that the entire kit is made from 4130 and that even though you were off on the count that the entire kit comes included with all weld in threaded bungs. Nothing special for me, this is what you told me your kit came with and what I paid for.

First and most important to me, the ball joints in the control arms I got from you are not in near as good of condition as the ones I sent to you. I have compared them to the ones I have here that I chose not to send because they were not as tight as the ones from my wife's pilot that I did send and they are not in as good of condition as the ones I have here. I would Please like a set of control arms with proper tight ball joints like I sent to begin with, with weld in bungs. I will return these arms after I receive the new ones from you.

Second, the rear shock hoops should have been made from 4130 per your original message quoted above, not .095 mild steel. I would Please like a set of hoops made from 4130 and another set of top shock mounts. I will take care of replacing my shock hoops with the ones you send. Not necessary but I would appreciate 2 pieces of 3/4 120 4130 to replace the shock hoop supports since I will have to cut these off when I replace the hoops, 9.5 inches long each.

Third, all the steering parts are also supposed to have weld in bungs. I would like my outer tie rods made with weld in bungs and I would like new inner tie rods made with weld in bungs. All 4130. I will return the inner tie rods you sent me with once I receive the new ones.

Fourth, my rear shock mount kit that I did not receive.

Fifth, no steering stops were installed on the bumper steer. Please send these to me and I will install myself.

Sixth, I am not sure what to do about this but my lower steering shaft sticks out some at the bottom, which means the o-ring at the bottom will not seal.

Seventh, the upper shaft has play where it goes through your upper bearing, it is only tight at full right which I guess means it is not totally straight. I am not sure what can be done about this either.

Eighth and VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT to me, with no shock on I did a rough measurement of wheel travel.

Full droop to full up
LF 13.75 inches
RF 12.50 inches this one does not droop as far as the left front, it sets 1 inch higher off the ground.
LR 11.00 inches
RR 11.00 inches

How can it have almost 14inches of travel in the rear and almost 16inches in the front if the wheel will not even travel that far with out the shock and why is there a 1.25 inch difference between the left and right front. After the rear shocks are on it will have even less travel in the rear. What is going on with this???

There are some more smaller things but I will take care of those.

I do not want to pay any shipping charges as I feel these things should have been proper before I ever got out there.

I do not wish to talk on the phone and argue about anything, please just take care of these problems right away PLEASE!!! I do not want to wait, I have waited a very long time as it is to get this pilot done.

I would like a response from you on what will be done within 24hrs. of you reading this PLEASE!!!

I hope that this can all be fixed asap.

Thank you, Steve.

PS and the 4 heims with nuts that are on order.

Message subject: Re: Hello Dave
From: scpilot66
Sent: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:56 pm
To: Dave-Co
Message
Dave-Co wrote:
Steve I don't know where to begin, I am not making anything else out of 4130. I gave you my reason for not doing it and that's the way it is. The front I don't know how you are measuring I set yours up the way I do all my pilots. The ball joints are yours like it or not they are what YOU sent me I have kept them separate this whole time because YOU asked me to. Those are yours. When they are welded on they lossen up some more than others. It happens on all the ball joints. NONE stay tight like a hardly run pilot. I swear to christ they are yours. Your arms stayed on the other side of the garage since I made them! I told you the rear travel pushes threw to aprox 14 inches, wait tell you ride it. I busted my ass for you. The steering column I don't know what happened, send it back and I will fix it. I stayed up all ((Bad Word)) night making it to where I believe was right. The bushing is what it is. I am human and can do nothing right for you obviously. Since 2013 as I explained to you while you were here to your face I have made changes for the better so you don't ruin your frame. I told you everything and the reason behind it. That does not give you anything extra or obligate me to make anything out of something else. I did the work for you most with out being payed and supplied all the bolts washers spaces with out a dime given for these. NO< the steering does not use bungs I don't use bungs on the steering, they are to big. I am not using 1 inch tubing for tie rods. My first pilot has 1 inch tie rods because I was in a hurry to go to the desert and was all I had no one gets something like that. I clearly explained everything to you and the reasons why. I should have had more time to work with this, weeks not 2 days with you watching over my shoulder 2 days is not enough time to do this. My son and I worked very hard on this . I have the 2 rod ends I am waiting on the other 2. I don't know what else to say but I will not make or give you some other arms or shock hoops tubing or tabs, read it again it says nothing about 4130 shock hoops even then. I have 1 pilot with 4130 hoops and that is my first I have given no one 4130 shock hoops, no one including my self. The steering is 4130 including the swing arms tie rods and the smaLL TIE RODS No bungs. When the other 2 rod ends show I will send all 4 of them to you.
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OK Dave, I guess I am just screwed. I guess you think I am stupid, I wonder why we got in to it right when I got there. Because I knew they were not my ball joints. I felt a few sitting on your shelves and they sure were tight. I guess what you said when you told me you would have built halorisings stuff all new again to make him happy was not true.

Message subject: Re: Hello Dave
From: scpilot66
Sent: Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:25 pm
To: Dave-Co
Message
Dave-Co wrote:
Are you calling me a lire Steve? Those are your ball joints, I am not making a entire new thing because you will never be happy. I will be happy to fix what I did wrong but making a hundred demands on me will get us nowhere. You are far from screwed. I want to make you happy but I wont let you walk all over me doing it. I told you to your face they were yours I stand behind that. I don't know where to go from here because you believe they are not yours and I KNOW THEY ARE! You are the only one I have done this for. I should have told you no. I tell everyone its the luck of the draw on ball joints except YOU
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I would have been very happy if I had gone out there and things would have been the way I thought they would be, the way you sold me on, what I paid you for and my tight ball joints back that I sent. You never said one single word to me about changes to your kit not once, I figure you save a good amount of money by using nuts instead of bungs and by using mild steel where you use to use and have sold your kits on using 4130, yes I did get bungs on most of my parts but only after raising hell with you about it 30 minutes or so after I got there. The only reason I got rear upper swing arms with bungs and made of 4130 is because the other arms you were trying to give me made out of .095 mild steel and with no weld in bungs DID NOT WORK RIGHT THE SUSPENSION WOULD NOT TRAVEL YOU EVEN SAID SOMETHING MUST HAVE HAPPENED WHEN YOU MADE THEM, even though the 4130 with bungs were what I paid you for originally you want me to pay $100.00 more for them.

I sent my first payment of $750.00 on 12/20/2013, I paid off my kit and a few of the hiems on 2/24/14 $1450.00 total sent, I paid off all but $36.00 on the heims on 3/15/14 $550.00 more sent for a total of $2000.00, $700.00 for the heims and $1300.00 for the kit. After all that time you still were not prepared when I got there, we had to go get this part and that part, even though I had already paid you $700.00 for my heims I still had to pay another $163.38 for heims while I was there, 32 heims should have been $736.00, I paid you a total of $863.38 for my heims. It was you that told me 2 days to do my kit, not me that pressured you to do it in that time. I went out there to get my kit completely installed and properly adjusted by you, after waiting all this time I left with out having everything needed to put it all together and with out you adjusting it like you told me would be done, tires and wheels were not even put on.

Within the first five minutes of me being there and you seeing the look on my face about my ball joints (I had not even noticed the bungs missing yet) you told me if I was not happy you did not want to do my kit. When I said the ball joint I was holding was not mine you told me I had sent you a loose one and you gave me one, when I explained all the ball joints I went through to send you perfect joints you changed it to it must have been damaged when welding. All this in the first five minutes I was there.

The travel I have is no where close to what you advertised, one front arm droops 1 inch lower then the other, the first rear upper swing arms you were giving me would not let the suspension travel right at all if I had left with them I would have had even less travel in the rear because they were made wrong, you are the one that found this. Maybe something is wrong with these other arms I have front and rear, maybe a mistake was made. I guess you just expect me to live with it.

NOT COOL Dave, I had very much hoped you would be honest and take care of these things but it looks like you just do not care to try.

I put one hell of a lot of trust in you, very sad that you will do me this way now.

Message subject: Re: Hello Dave
From: scpilot66
Sent: Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:16 am
To: Dave-Co
Message
Dave-Co wrote:
Ok Steve I failed you in the 2 days I had to work with. If you think I made changes to save money you know what you can do with that. AGAIN I clearly explaned my reasons for things I did, I have got everything except the front shocks at prices you could never touch tried to save you at every turn. I had no time so I don't feel bad, everything could be made right with the damn thing here but you are to cheap for that. I should have sent you on your way when you got here and started picking about crap you have no idea about. I don't care if I didnt have things totally ready, I could give a damn, my son and I busted our asses. The ball joints are yours, I refuse to do something about that because I know they are yours. and yes all 4 are yours, after your bitch fit I put the other I had replaced back. No i didnt tell you nor did I need to. I can look youi square in the eye they are yours.None of this is cut and dry I did my best with the time I had even going further than I should have.I was under zero obligation to remount the links for you and make others, none., none. If anything is wrong I cant do anything with out it here. With it here and you not it could all be staightend out but I can do nothing with it there. You are full of it up to your neck on the rear arms, completly wrong all kinds of pilots are running with them including mine.. I could work on your pilot every day for a year and you would pick it apart. 2 fricking days is not enough time including PS. I have no doubt I wont see the money that is owed me I should never have let you talk me into fronting some one like you. You need to do all and everything yourself because no mater what no one will make you even a little happy. I don't know where to go from here because I cant make anything right with it there, and no I wont just start making new things for it. Everyone has given me a month at least yes I have remade things to get things working the way I want that's why I get the time. I don't know what to do but I can do nothing with out it here. but if you keep on with this ball joint BS I will do nothing. I don't lie to anyone. Especially over a stupid atv ball joint that goes to a stupid little buggy. I have more integrity than that so if you still doubt me I am done.


OK Dave, I have tried to give you a chance to make things right and you have now insulted my intelligence, called me cheap and say I am full of it up to my neck. I have talked you in to nothing absolutely nothing. Some one like me, really wow!!!

You had the exact amount of time you asked for, actually you had 3 days when originally you said 2. This is not my fault, it is yours.

I never asked you to save me anything, I asked you for a perfect kit and you said no problem from the beginning, it was very clear from the beginning the level of quality I wanted in my kit, I waited for you to do my kit yourself to insure this. I cut no corners bought the best heims, the best everything or so I thought and you say I am cheap.

You say I was picking about crap I have no idea about, see that is one thing I noticed with you right away. You must think you are the only one that knows anything about anything, well I have great experience with ball joints, I am very good at what I do as well, I am also smart and I know and recognize when things are not what they are supposed to be.

I told you the first time I ever talked to you and many other times when we talked that I am a perfectionist that I wanted my pilot to be show room floor condition, I even used the term MUSEUM QUALITY, I made it VERY VERY CLEAR to you. I have been nothing but STRAIGHT UP HONEST and VERY DETAILED in what I expected from you, YOU SURE AS HELL DID NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY PERFECTIONISM WHEN I WAS SENDING YOU MY MONEY NOW DID YOU.

After me waiting and having my kit and heims paid for since 3/15/2014 and traveling almost 800 miles to get to you, you do not care if you had everything ready, in your words you could give a damn. Wow just wow!!!

So after my bitch as you say and after you had told me that you replaced one of my ball joints because I sent you a loose one or wait was it damaged when it was welded yeah that was your story after I told you mine about the ball joints I picked out, kind of chickenshit like that you gave me a looser one with out telling me, GOOD HONEST MAN AREN'T YOU. It is very funny how I got upset so fast when I got there within 5 minutes, also kind of funny how you picked up on it so fast and got nervous, also funny that what I was upset about is the fact that I recognized it was not my ball joint, also funny that it was the first ball joint I picked up and just happened to be the one you replaced, also funny that when I was not happy with it you said I will get you another tighter one Steve what ever you want no problem, also funny how you tried to say they were mine because the grease was cleaned out, also funny how all the ones on your shelf had the grease cleaned out and the fact that the grease has to be cleaned before welding anyway. You knew right away that I recognized that the ball joints were not mine, none of them, I believe that you had a kit to build and my stuff was sitting there built so you decided to give mine away and build me different later since you had so much time before I would be out there.

When I pitched my bitch as you say, I blew up and told you I would load my shit and leave this was within 30 minutes of being there, you immediately told me that you would do anything needed to make it right and we right away went and you bought the proper weld in bungs for the front swing arms instead of the cheap ass nuts you had welded in the ends of the arms and then that night you swap out and give me a loose ball joint. Wow, this is what you consider being Honest and making it right. You know you had me in tears after being at your home for 30 minutes or so, I called my wife and broke down crying to her that night my first night there, I talked to a very good friend the next morning after sleeping only about an hour that night because I was so upset and broke down crying to him. I have sacrificed so much and waited a long time for this kit and you totally ruined it absolutely and completely. Not to mention my wife being worried, very very upset and not sleeping very much the whole time I was there.

So using a 30 cent nut with maybe a 1/4 of threads or so next to a $10.00 proper weld in bung with around 1 inch of threads or so is not saving you money and is as strong as the 1 inch of threads in the bung next to 1/4 of threads in the nut and the fact that you have advertized your kits with the weld in bungs, I guess I do know what I can do with that. Spell out the truth that is what I can do with that. Did you drop the price of your kits when you started using cheaper products, I mean you do say you are trying to save everyone money but still produce quality, you sure did not drop the price on my kit as a matter of fact you raised it from $1000.00 on 10/15/2013 to $1300.00 on 12/20/2013 when I made my first payment.

On the rear upper swing arms alone you are saving $60.00 in bungs, you did say they were $15.00 each for the bungs. Also you advertized everything on your kits was being built with 4130 yet now the rear upper swing arms are being built with mild steel, the rear upper swing arm bungs have been replaced with mild steel with a nut that has 1/4 inch of threads or so welded to the end, the hoops mild steel, the rear lower arms mild steel which I am fine with the rear lower arms built from that. I know I got the rear upper swing arms that are built as advertized I am just stating what you are doing as opposed to what you have advertized and sold you kits on.

You say you have remade things to get them working right, if your kits are built with the quality you said they were why do you have to remake things aren't jigs made so that they all come out the same every time. And do you only remake things when they are there, does that mean that people that have you ship the kits to them are shit out of luck if something is not right and needs to be remade.

You gave me your word when I left that if anything was not right to please please contact you and you would take care of it, you said this many times to me, well I have contacted you and from what I can tell you are telling me to go pound sand!!!