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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I got off work an hour early and reworked arm before taking my father out to dinner for his Birthday.

I have done several set up on front end and now fill comfortable with final setting. I now cut and rework upper arm for propper fit and adjustment on the 13.5 " trave front.

The issues I had were: #1 lower heim was adjusted out to far not leaving what I belivev was enough material left inside of adjuster. #2 the upper was to long causing the hiem on upper spindle to be adjusted all the way in putting lock nut on back side of adjuster( nasty looking). This allowed the arm to hit spindle at full droop( 15" travle set up) scaring the spindle. #3 the upper front hiem on frame mount was adjusted out to far only allowing 3/4" screwed in the bung. #4 the upper arm heim on spindle was not in line with the bottom and the shock shaft. There was a few other but minor.

What I did: I cut 1" off of upper rear arm and rewelded in bung achieving proper alignment and greater clearences all around solving issues stated above also allowing clearences for 16" of travle( next project).

Why not just adjust it out? Well the adjusting the front hiem not only moved the hiem ( spindle)adjuster back and out it also caused to to be angled to far forward and cause miss alignment. cutting the 1" of of rear allowed the front hiem to be screwed in forward and realign the adjuster so the upper,lower and shock can travle in the same direction as one.

So here the pics.


Attachments:
File comment: new arm streched to fit un cut
uncut upper arm trx.jpg
uncut upper arm trx.jpg [ 96.46 KiB | Viewed 3194 times ]
File comment: cut 1" off of rear upper arm behind bung
Remove 1 inch of rear upper arm.jpg
Remove 1 inch of rear upper arm.jpg [ 100.79 KiB | Viewed 3194 times ]
File comment: cut behind factory weld, not at weld explain later.
Remove bung fromcut piece ground behind weld.jpg
Remove bung fromcut piece ground behind weld.jpg [ 72.5 KiB | Viewed 3194 times ]
File comment: the bung,the 1" removed piece and the cut arm
Bung removed from cut piece.jpg
Bung removed from cut piece.jpg [ 106.55 KiB | Viewed 3194 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
the rest of the work


Attachments:
File comment: this is why I cut behind the weld when you "V" notch it you remove most of the factory weld and maitain surface are for new weld.
arm and bung  V  notched for welding.jpg
arm and bung V notched for welding.jpg [ 95.58 KiB | Viewed 3192 times ]
File comment: welded in bung and cut off piece.
Bung welded in cut arm.jpg
Bung welded in cut arm.jpg [ 94.21 KiB | Viewed 3192 times ]
File comment: Bung pre weld fit before notch and weld
bung pushed in cut arm.jpg
bung pushed in cut arm.jpg [ 99.73 KiB | Viewed 3192 times ]
File comment: final product fit and adjusted just needs painted.
View of new modified arm fit on pilot.jpg
View of new modified arm fit on pilot.jpg [ 85.02 KiB | Viewed 3192 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Happy Bday dad. You did all that in an hour. Man I need one of those gloves :-)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I'll get you a pair or two. Yes I did it under an hour had to shower before leaving.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Sorry you want to know how I did it under an hour. I opened up note book( remember to take notes). Get out vise band saw and tape measure. Mark arm cut and get out dotco. cut thru tube and pull out bung. V- notch via bench grinder and weld up. Bolt up setting on arms to note and close garage door. The hacker bench has wheels on it so I can roll in and out of garage. That is how the back yard hacker did it under an hour. Oh ya took pics that took the longest. Oh ya again, poped tab and refreshed while bath ran.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Hers is some pics of the new arm set up with the new final bump idler. Did some brake line work put in seperate thread


Attachments:
new bump,rework arm and woods set up high GC.jpg
new bump,rework arm and woods set up high GC.jpg [ 81.54 KiB | Viewed 3152 times ]
looking down on new set up.jpg
looking down on new set up.jpg [ 79.45 KiB | Viewed 3152 times ]
new final bumb idler.jpg
new final bumb idler.jpg [ 69.91 KiB | Viewed 3152 times ]
Front view of new woods set up 8.5 inch travle.jpg
Front view of new woods set up 8.5 inch travle.jpg [ 67.82 KiB | Viewed 3152 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Im jealous


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
No need, you'll have your shock fixed soon.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
When you get all finished with your current project, can you check out the alignment on the Tigers?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I'll look it over I like looking them over, Sweeeeeet. You better lock up the tool box sometimes I don't know were to stop. I'll even bring stixs some gloves. Are you having any issues or just tune up. Feed me some input on specs. I like input.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
adnoh wrote:
I'll look it over I like looking them over, Sweeeeeet. You better lock up the tool box sometimes I don't know were to stop. I'll even bring stixs some gloves. Are you having any issues or just tune up. Feed me some input on specs. I like input.


No issues, it is just that the angles on the wheels have always looked odd to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
I have a pair of front lower arms on the way. I hope they are not bent like mine. I decided to leave the arms alone on #1. Will ship the shock to Works tomorrow and get my piston & stuff on order too...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
You know stixs I owe you one. After our talk on shock I went out and did some csi on shock angle on the new set up. I found as the front rakes the shock also moved back. UM?. I have miss align spacer on shock so it would most likely would been ok. I know, most likely ok. Yes, I moved it 1/4 " forward on the lower arm giving me as they say wiggle room. Thanks.

Drakman, can you share a pic or two for borad to review and discuss. Any funny feel in steering in high speed straights or wheel kick on off camber hits. Any push or other low speed action or reaction. Check shock free play movment. Ever had fluid change. Any torn tie rod end boots. Spindle move free or any play. I will enjoy collecting data on the tiger. I use some data from them when I built my LT kit.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:44 pm 
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Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Glad my misfortune had a good impact on someone. After I installed the new shock I had one those "O crap I stitched'em up and left the scalpel in" then decided to wait for the lawsuit instead of performing the surgery again :shock:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
adnoh wrote:
You know stixs I owe you one. After our talk on shock I went out and did some csi on shock angle on the new set up. I found as the front rakes the shock also moved back. UM?. I have miss align spacer on shock so it would most likely would been ok. I know, most likely ok. Yes, I moved it 1/4 " forward on the lower arm giving me as they say wiggle room. Thanks.

Drakman, can you share a pic or two for borad to review and discuss. Any funny feel in steering in high speed straights or wheel kick on off camber hits. Any push or other low speed action or reaction. Check shock free play movment. Ever had fluid change. Any torn tie rod end boots. Spindle move free or any play. I will enjoy collecting data on the tiger. I use some data from them when I built my LT kit.


Rich, Everything works fine. I just get the feeling looking at it that the wheels are out at the bottom and in at the top, and that the fronts are towed out. Nothing torn or damaged, it has always been that way. I have heard in the past that towed out makes it easier to come out of a turn and towed in makes it easier to go into a turn, you know if that is true? Ol Blue was alway the same way, here is a pic from the last ride showing them all together. I guess more than anything else, I am trying to piggy back on your recent experience.


Attachments:
t_12_137-1.jpg
t_12_137-1.jpg [ 84.67 KiB | Viewed 3172 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I was not aware of this. Interesting. You got me curious now. Sound like a test session to determin. Thanks for the input. I am running 3/4 toe in right now at this current caster and camber set up. If toed to zero or out it really turned to quick and had to chnge to a positive seet up.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
that's a really cool pic did tedpilot wax his it had a reflection your did not. Maybe hand him a sand sandwich to dual that shine a little.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
adnoh wrote:
that's a really cool pic did tedpilot wax his it had a reflection your did not. Maybe hand him a sand sandwich to dual that shine a little.


Hmmm, I actually waxed mine earlier this year, but then, it was covered with dust and dirt, maybe the sand storm cleaned Ted's?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
I got to find him a wax on sticker or a " want to get waxed" sticker. I think hes waxing it in the pic. They do look good. He could be wax on and you could be wax off. after all there twins.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:15 pm
Posts: 372
Location: Boston, Ma
Actually, I'm pretty sure I was cleaning sand off of my helmet as it blew off the Drak and rolled down the hill... The Drak, for the record, has only been waxed twice that I can recall.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
adnoh wrote:
I was not aware of this. Interesting. You got me curious now. Sound like a test session to determin. Thanks for the input. I am running 3/4 toe in right now at this current caster and camber set up. If toed to zero or out it really turned to quick and had to chnge to a positive seet up.


What you are saying seems to validate what I had heard about Toe in vs Toe out. I always figured ours were set up to come out of turn quickly, but to take more effort to get into the turn. This make sense?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Interesting allology. I looked over your pics and compared to notes. First your pic showes toed out and neg-camber( top of tire leaning in. By chance do you data on caster setting center line thru ball joints stright up or top leaning back (positive caster) or top leaning forward(neg caster). or your scrub angle center line thru ball joint in relation to center of tire.

I will address the neg camber setting first. In the pic fl670 has more neg camber than the tigers. Why? first my notes show that theres a coralatioon between gc ( ground clearence) and and camber in relation to sag. Fl670 front sets higher beacause of the lower sag #. I would bet that his sag is less. example 670 at 30% and tigers at 45%. My data supports this. the data showes at a higher gc with less sag requires more neg camber to achieve same effect.

I have yet to corlate toe to enrty /exit since I reworked bump to +- 1/8 of an inch at 14" wheel travle. I was also not looking for it as I,am now. I did mention that a wider entry angl was required however since I added 1?4 bump stop and changed lever rastio on bump the varibale is entry speed and front prload as well as rear lock. What I would need is arm lenght sag # and travle #'s as well as bump and rake with bump #S at wheel lock and caster #s at wheel lock for every inch of travle to compare.

Why? In my case the trx set arm were never ment to run past 12" so when I set at normal sag for 13.5 the front set lower and needed a lower neg camber setting and more positive caster. This was due to the arm locations in elevation effecting rake deg thu cornor. I will use this data for low speed compression settings at a given sag and GC #. Next the data showed that when changing scrub angle via offset rims and taller tire the toe setting needed to increased 1/4 for ever 1' of height and evry inch of offset. The data also showed when at a higer sag rate with soft compression the amount of wheel lock tire angle decreased requireing less neg camber to compaste the positive camber effect on compression thu cornor at the lower sag rate and lower gc #. changing the amount of load to front in sag determined the camber and caster setting for the cornor. Toe was effected by tire scrub angle and side wall stiffness. An expample for field setting would be if chasing quads set up caster and camber the same and change gc and sag then decrease low speed compression. When chasing tigers(FUN) increase sag lower gc and increases low speed compression. This should achieve same or close to same results when tracking and cornoring at speed the wider and longer machine. If set up for tiger chasing I would also slow down steering a little by decresiing neg caster. The approach angle is not as sharp as a quad.



The last is the relation to ride height. The front of fl670 I would bet is lighter at that sag # changing the amount of neg caster required to achiev turn. It is set up like most quads and the tiger is set up like most larger buggys more netural and a heavier front end changeing the amount of load on front effecting camber setting at a high sag rate. This would also explain why fl670 can lift front tire when in tight turn. A decreases in front and rear sag lowering gc and a add neg camber would settle it down and increase compression to offset sag # The bad thing is he will need to be more aggressive on suspension ( use both hands)to achieve a soft ride( more entry speed and more brake) and hold cornor ,as well increase positive camber.

Need a little help on reatation on the toe. Please provide me some input for comparison and efffect way of thinking.

Short version: Thoughts on notes comparison. If that is happing and you struggle in decrease front sag and increase neg caster quicken up the steering. Any wheel twitch.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
adnoh wrote:
Interesting allology. I looked over your pics and compared to notes. First your pic showes toed out and neg-camber( top of tire leaning in. By chance do you data on caster setting center line thru ball joints stright up or top leaning back (positive caster) or top leaning forward(neg caster). or your scrub angle center line thru ball joint in relation to center of tire.

I will address the neg camber setting first. In the pic fl670 has more neg camber than the tigers. Why? first my notes show that theres a coralatioon between gc ( ground clearence) and and camber in relation to sag. Fl670 front sets higher beacause of the lower sag #. I would bet that his sag is less. example 670 at 30% and tigers at 45%. My data supports this. the data showes at a higher gc with less sag requires more neg camber to achieve same effect.

I have yet to corlate toe to enrty /exit since I reworked bump to +- 1/8 of an inch at 14" wheel travle. I was also not looking for it as I,am now. I did mention that a wider entry angl was required however since I added 1?4 bump stop and changed lever rastio on bump the varibale is entry speed and front prload as well as rear lock. What I would need is arm lenght sag # and travle #'s as well as bump and rake with bump #S at wheel lock and caster #s at wheel lock for every inch of travle to compare.

Why? In my case the trx set arm were never ment to run past 12" so when I set at normal sag for 13.5 the front set lower and needed a lower neg camber setting and more positive caster. This was due to the arm locations in elevation effecting rake deg thu cornor. I will use this data for low speed compression settings at a given sag and GC #. Next the data showed that when changing scrub angle via offset rims and taller tire the toe setting needed to increased 1/4 for ever 1' of height and evry inch of offset. The data also showed when at a higer sag rate with soft compression the amount of wheel lock tire angle decreased requireing less neg camber to compaste the positive camber effect on compression thu cornor at the lower sag rate and lower gc #. changing the amount of load to front in sag determined the camber and caster setting for the cornor. Toe was effected by tire scrub angle and side wall stiffness. An expample for field setting would be if chasing quads set up caster and camber the same and change gc and sag then decrease low speed compression. When chasing tigers(FUN) increase sag lower gc and increases low speed compression. This should achieve same or close to same results when tracking and cornoring at speed the wider and longer machine. If set up for tiger chasing I would also slow down steering a little by decresiing neg caster. The approach angle is not as sharp as a quad.



The last is the relation to ride height. The front of fl670 I would bet is lighter at that sag # changing the amount of neg caster required to achiev turn. It is set up like most quads and the tiger is set up like most larger buggys more netural and a heavier front end changeing the amount of load on front effecting camber setting at a high sag rate. This would also explain why fl670 can lift front tire when in tight turn. A decreases in front and rear sag lowering gc and a add neg camber would settle it down and increase compression to offset sag # The bad thing is he will need to be more aggressive on suspension ( use both hands)to achieve a soft ride( more entry speed and more brake) and hold cornor ,as well increase positive camber.

Need a little help on reatation on the toe. Please provide me some input for comparison and efffect way of thinking.

Short version: Thoughts on notes comparison. If that is happing and you struggle in decrease front sag and increase neg caster quicken up the steering. Any wheel twitch.


Adnoh, I have no notes on any of this, just my impressions. What I am trying to get at here, is, I wonder if they are set up for the best overall handling, or would a bit of adjustment make them better. All of these handle well, Ol Blue is much softer than the Tigers, is a bit quicker in the turns (it is 18 inches shorter), but less stable on high speed runs. A Pilot is approx 7 ' long, Ol Blue is 8.5', and the Tigers are 10', it is of course no surprise that they all handle a bit different, each has it's strong points and shortcomings.

Here are some photos of Ol Blue that may be interesting. It is worthy of note that the front on this machine will rise when backed up, and fall to normal riding height when going forward. I haven't noticed this in the Tigers or in the other Drakarts I have owned. I don't know that it means anything, just always noticed that.


Attachments:
File comment: Unloaded and rolled to a stop
Blue by the pond.JPG
Blue by the pond.JPG [ 363.88 KiB | Viewed 3045 times ]
File comment: Drakman sitting in Ol Blue, shortly before picture by the pond, Photos by Hoser
Drakman in Ol Blue.JPG
Drakman in Ol Blue.JPG [ 373.52 KiB | Viewed 3045 times ]
File comment: A group shot, all are loaded except the Pilot, Photo by FL670
FL670, Eddy, Drakman, Litespeed.jpg
FL670, Eddy, Drakman, Litespeed.jpg [ 118.34 KiB | Viewed 3045 times ]
File comment: Straight on shot of OL Blue just sitting there
Ol Blue straight on.JPG
Ol Blue straight on.JPG [ 111.24 KiB | Viewed 3093 times ]
File comment: Front has been lifted to full extension
Ol Blue at full extension.JPG
Ol Blue at full extension.JPG [ 345.8 KiB | Viewed 3045 times ]
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:33 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:51 am
Posts: 2703
Location: Upland, Ca
Have any of you drakart owners went up against the revolts yet?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
shoubadaba wrote:
Have any of you drakart owners went up against the revolts yet?


Not that I know of.

Several of us, myself, Hoser, Eddy and some others saw a pair of them out at Glamis, we were going to catch them and take a look when SocalGi had an accident and we stopped and never saw them again.

This was early 2007, the pair was black with no apparent markings, it looked like they were out testing them. What we saw was them running in basically a straight line up through a ravine, so we never saw them 'strut their stuff', so I had no real impression of what they could do.


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