That was me bringing that up in an older post and it went typical internet forum attitude real quick...

Now, I have since spoken with Dave and his opinion was, if you've got a ball joint, let's make it work

Do you remember the post I would like to refresh my memory.

I tried welding in ball joints when building my long travel front, wrapped them in water soaked rags to keep them cool, they did not make it but 3 rides or so before the play was excessive. Quick modification and a rod end set up took their place.

I guess they must be cold welded from Honda

What was the process, did Honda weld them on the arms as a assembled ball joint or did they assemble after they were welded and cooled? My guess is the ball joint was assembled after they cooled.

Since my arms Dave made used the old ball joints from my stock arms, I'm going to take my suspension apart over the weekend and check the condition of the ball joint and report what I find.

Measure your suspension travel while its apart? Take pictures that might help scPilot66 too maybe?

Here are some pictures of finished front upper and lower arms Dave had sitting on the shelf, I felt at least 6 or 7 of the ball joints and every single one that I felt were nice and tight.

So how come the ball joints on the shelf didnt get loose when they were welded? No wonder the kid brags up his Pilot they have all the best parts installed how could he complain when the best parts are kept and the lose ball joints are pawed off on others. This is exactly why I question using weld in ball joints in the first place IT MADE NO SENSE THEN AND MAKES NO SENSE NOW unless your the source of the parts and are hand picking the ball joints going on your own machine.

HUGE difference when your select fitting parts on something mechanical.

Here is a list of what Dave is building the kits out of now.

Front upper & lower swing arms, 1 inch. .095 4130 Chromoly. No weld in bungs, nuts instead. Weld in bungs are stronger and they are centered properly in the tubing.

Steering tie rods 3/4 120 4130, nuts welded on for the heims.

Shock hoops 1 inch. .095 mild steel, shock hoop supports 3/4 120 4130.

Rear lower control arms all 6, .095 mild steel with weld in threaded bungs.

Rear upper swing arms, .095 mild steel. No weld in bungs, a piece of tubing with a nut welded in the end for the heims to screw to.

Front shock upper mount tube, 1.5 inch. .095 mild steel.

Front + rear upper shock mounts, 3/16 mild steel.

Steve, have you been able to move forward despite Dave-Co jumping ship?
Hopefully Cruz's info can help!

Before a strength discussion starts what were they suppose to be made from/what did you pay for, what was agreed on?

Below is a copy of an email Dave sent to me on 10/15/2013.
It was my understanding that my kit and all of his kits were made with 4130 and with weld in threaded bungs. Not only from his message below but also from talking with Dave over the phone and all of Dave's posts here on what he was using for materials. Dave never said one single word to me about any changes to his kit, not until I got to his home and I noticed the changes myself. Dave also said that he must have made a special deal with me on the bungs.
One thing I am fine with is the rear lower control arms all 6, made with .095 mild steel.

Hi Steve, I can make you front arms with the ball joints out of your stock arms rear arms I need your stock top arms, all the links the bump steer all out of 4130 the shock hoops minus hymes minus shocks for a thousand bucks. My pilot uses 24 hymes, I personally use the best, most use the cheapest, the best cost me 23 dollars each, as well as 24 weld in theaded bungs at10 bucks each those are included in the thousand dollar kit, if you want shocks springs the total kit about 3 grand for what I put on m,y pilots, less than half of ATVs kit. It is hard to get around the cost of the shocks. I bought the front shocks from country cat off of e-bay and cost about 900 bucks alone with spring and all that is required I would not run any other, they are adjustable comp and rebound and are the perfect length for the front travel and are unreal in handling. The rear shocks are over 400 each, I . The springs are about 55 each for the rear and it takes 4. This is me not making anything on shocks spring and hymes and spacers and figure 350 for LT axles. I have given real prices for everything at my prices, its not cheap but consider ATV gets about 7500 and in my opinion is a rape and I feel my set up far out does theirs. I am building a rear kit for Rusty(Shabadaba) for his pilot right now. Feel free to call me @ 951-696-0219 once you go long travel you will ask yourself what took so long lol-- thanks for the intrust---Dave

Looks pretty cut and dry to me he lied no other way to slice and dice it unless I am missing something, you used clear communication in plain English his reply was the same, the failure to deliver is 100% on Dave. How it happen on his end is all on Dave and Dave's personal business WE don't need any excuses YOU just need what you paid for or a refund or adjustment, realize NOBODY is 100% mistakes like these are forgivable once made right, its the response humans make after a mistake is made that is important.

Here are some pictures of the rear upper swing arms Dave was going to send me home with but they would not work right (Thank goodness), he was also trying to leave the rear radius arms in there stock location. Dave ended up walking away from the rear and working on the front. This was on Saturday 3/21/2015.

Saturday night and Sunday morning it was bothering me about the rear radius arms being moved, I knew that they were supposed to be moved. I had decided that I was going to ask that they be moved if Dave was not going to move them.

On Sunday 3/22/2015, when Dave got back to working on the rear he was sitting there looking at things with a what do I do look on his face (I had not said a word about the radius arms) and I TELL DAVE, I SURE WISH YOU WOULD DO WHAT YOU ARE THINKING YOU NEED TO DO. Dave looked at me surprised I think because I knew what he was thinking and the next thing you know the rear radius arms are being moved.

After moving the rear radius arms the rear upper swing arms still would not work right, Dave tried and tried to adjust the rear and get it to work but it would not.

DAVE SAID SOMETHING MUST HAVE HAPPENED WHEN HE MADE THEM!!! Referring to the rear upper swing arms that would not work right.

As luck would have it, Dave tells his son to go over under the bench (opposite side of the garage from where the other arms are at) and get some arms that are wrapped up in a towel. Wow, low and behold the arms are what I paid for to begin with, made with 4130 and with weld in bungs. Dave tells me he had made these for himself and in the end charges me $100.00 more for them.

After installing the new rear upper swing arms the rear suspension now moves to Dave's liking and I could see that they allowed much more travel then the other set. I kick myself for this but no measurements were taken as to the amount of travel. My fault I should have asked for measurements on travel, really mad at myself for that!!!

I think one big problem with Dave's kits besides everything else is that the swing arms or at least the rear upper swing arms DO NOT COME OUT THE SAME EVERY TIME!!! I think Dave believes that close is good enough because it is all adjustable. I think different.

These are pictures of the rear upper swing arms I came home with.

So does Dave-Co normally relocate the rear radius arms further forward or not?

The Wolfskill LT ARV Racing Pilot the rear radius arms are located further forward if you need measurements how much further forward let me know.

Cant believe Dave-Co is not using a jig to build his arms not what a expected from a aerospace fabricator who has welded on every Space Shuttle ever flown, its just not adding up just like his kid coming here talking out his ass telling everybody not to judge the work before its assembled and tested heck you have not even received what you agreed on and paid for yet HOW CAN YOU ASSEMBLE AND TEST, makes no sense.

scpilot66, I went through one of my files and found this to share. It shows what I was working on at the time in 2007. You can see at what point the ball joint binds and travel numbers. You can also see that I use an atvr arm with some hacker extensions etc to locate some pivot spots. It also will show how much toe, camber and the amount and location of hub swing. I should have others once I dig around. I found these in with a high pressure cylinder test.

Andoh

I found this pic of a jig I made for my rear hacker 2 arm. I found the hole darn file on an external hard drive.

Forgot to add this provided 13.875 inches of travel full compress to full extended at the up rights ball joint. This also uses ATVR axles and the stock radius rod point of attachment modified by moving pivot to the exterior of the stock mounting point and adding a bracket. This moved the upright rear ward and changes the I-rods length from front to rear. This also relocated the ball joint center line to the arm pivot center line out 1" verses the ATVR arm. The New arm configuration allows the shock to be bolted up in the stock location for more than a 1 to 1 ratio on the shock. The lever ratio now become variable thought out travel this to say the shock shaft will move at a ratio of the vertical wheel travel.

Adnoh

Wow has this thread gone viral, 2000 hits in two weeks.
Most other threads here barely get 500 hits total before they die and sometimes that takes weeks.
I don't know anyone here personally and I am not a suspension guy so will keep my yap shut as anything I say will just be spit coming out of my yap. Hope it gets resolved positively as the oddy community is a small one and we must all rely on one another for info and parts since stuff is not made for them anymore.

At least you made a jig and then used it you would think if someone was going to make more than one kit they would pull the finished arms off the first Pilot and build up some jigs to model future arm kits off of.

Thanks for sharing.

When I was taking my LT Pilot apart (Wolfskill Pilot) when I removed the rear shocks I checked my actual travel from full droop to full bump was right at 12" before I reassemble I will check again with the shock installed and no spring to see if that changes.

Whats wrong with the top arms now? I will talk out my ass somemore and say we do have Jigs for the top rear arms, both sides in fact

Hello J-CO. I for one I'm saying nothing about your or others work publically, I will if you like. Just posting up hopefully helpful info for scpilot66. I do have to ask why a jig for both sides or did you mean front and back. One jig for the rear is all you need as you flip it over the arm to install on the other side or did I oops. I also want to made it known that 15 to 16" can be had by widening it further in the rear than the 2" of an ATVR set up. I will let others speak about your rear arms and the way they look from set to set. After all I am just a back yard hacker with no formal experience at all. Its easy to pick ones work apart I would rather try to help if I can. The rest is between Dave-co and scpilot66. If scpilot66 tells me my help is not wanted then I will go away until then I will do what I can. So please leave me out of any of your post or quotes. It is good to here you built jigs for the arms.

Andoh

We have jigs for all the Arms, Front top and bottom and the Rear top, that's all this thread is, picking people's work apart.