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 Post subject: Extending Pilot A Arms
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Lee and I had discussed this in the past, take stock Pilot A arms and just extend them 2.5" longer.

Fabricate a jig to hold the arm, where the bolts pass through the frame mounts make 2 more tabs 2.5" away from the stock location, fill the gap.

What do you think Lee?


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longer arms.jpg
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 Post subject: well
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:26 pm 
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how did they work out?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
Hoser, sorry for the delay, we had a storm yesterday and my internet service went out. Apparently when Al Gore invented the internet he did not make it water proof.

I was thinking that an arm that had a bolt on extension could have some advantages.
-ability to restore the vehicle to stock at a later date.

-If we sell kits then the shipping box could be smaller (I would still charge the full amount though).

-We could tune the arm’s flexibility by changing the bushing in the old arm. By having some flexibility we can reduce the jarring to your hands when you hit a rock / stump. We need to make sure the bushing doesn’t allow too much flex of the steering accuracy will decrease.

-We can move the mounting location of the shock. In fact we could do an adapter for using the stock shocks or long travel aftermarket ones.

I have been working on an idea for this, I will post an image later.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:04 am
Posts: 465
Location: Springfield Ohio
OK, I have an image of what I think we could do to extend the arms:













.


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pilot extend an arm.JPG
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Lee wrote:
OK, I have an image of what I think we could do to extend the arms:

.


Ok we might as well name it now, looks like some sort of ram horn thing, is that going to drag the ground, how do I bend that up?

I love the concept but we need to refine it a little :-)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:31 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Ok my cad program is not as fancy smancy I guess I could get out some of the grandsons crayons but for now I will just stick with the pencil.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:48 pm 
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Location: San Diego
I have an alternate idea, I will try and draw up this weekend.

The concept is brilliant though, easily changed back is something everyone would want.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
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Location: Chicago
Below is part of a suspension conversation I had a few years back on this subject, it was lost in my archives and I just found it.

LONG TRAVEL SUSPENSION MODIFICATION FOR FL400

1) PURPOSE:

This investigation is a brief look at the effect of increasing the suspension travel of the FL400 (Pilot). The basic assumptions are that the A-arms, cushions and steering mechanism will be modified with the frame mounting locations and the knuckle left as is. This investigation dose not try to rectify the front suspension geometry w.r.t. handling performance.

It should be kept in mind that this investigation is a brief look at a complex system. Many items are glossed over and there is no engineering review of the recommendations made. Furthermore there is no attempt to calculate the strength or fatigue life of any of the modifications discussed. I have made this investigation on my own for possible use on my own vehicle at some future date and it has no connection to my employer. Any action taken based on the information reported here is taken at the owner / fabricator’s risk. Please do not share this with anyone who dose not have the brains to understand this.

2) BASIC ASSUMPTIONS:

1.Modify a stock FL400 for increased front suspension travel.
2.Frame and knuckle remain stock.
3.Steering system is modified to reduce bump steer and maintain functionality (modifications to increase suspension travel may interfere with tie rods).
4.A-arm lengthened 2 to 2.5 inches.
5.10” of front travel is the target.
6.New cushions from an after market source.

3) CONCLUSION

1)2.5” longer A-arms. Consider some type of adjustment to the upper arm length to set the static camber.
2)Move the ride hight up 2”. 1” is achieved by moving the 1G setting of the suspension, 1” is achieved by a larger front tire.
3)As stated above change to a 24” tire.
4)Some method of reducing the bump steer is needed

4) BASE MODEL TO START INVESTIGATION

The original vehicle was designed in 2D. The base layout dose not show the suspension in detail in the side and top views. Therefore some assumptions where made about the steering ball joint stud angles. As this investigation is limited to the basic layout so this should not be a problem.

5) LENGTH OF ARMS

To find the effect of the length of the A-arm the first modification was to make the A-arms 2” longer. From this model it was apparent that the ball joint stud angles would be significantly more than the stock vehicle at a wheel travel of 10”.

The 2nd model has 2.5” longer A-arms. On this model the ball joint stud angles are still much larger than the base vehicle but possibly acceptable.

This should be seen as the minimum acceptable A-arm length for 10” of wheel travel based on the ball joints and cushion function. Longer arms will improve the suspension wheel geometry but the rear track of the vehicle should be adjusted if the front is made wider than +5 inches.


6) BALL JOINTS

At +2.5” arms and 10” of wheel travel the ball joint maximum angle will look like this:

Image




It could be possible to use 400EX ball joints, however this would require that they be cut out of the existing arms as they are not available separately. It should be noted that the range of motion used is very large compared to what is typical of ATVs. Care is needed in the orientation of the ball joints to insure they do not bottom out. Ideally they should have an equal ‘margin’ all the way around in case of miss-calculations, fabrication errors or flex in the system. Also remember that most cushions have some amount of over stroke, you can see the bump rubber for compression but there is (usually) an internal spring for the fully extended condition.

7) RIDE HIGHT

There are several factors that need consideration to set the ride hight.
1)Bump stroke limitations. It may be possible to increase the bump stroke 15mm (0.6”).
a)This is not much of a change but it maintains the performance of the vehicle in full bottoming events. Catching the frame while landing a jump is not a good thing. The limp home with 2 flat tire capability may be compromised but gaining some bump travel is desirable (this should allow limping home at a slower pace, you don’t want to compress the suspension to the point that the frame drags).

b)Shock length limitations. I have assumed that the stock frame side shock mount would be used. Also I have assumed that the new A-arm would mount the shock the same distance from the lower ball joint as the stock arm. With this placement the collapse length of the shock is 0.5 to 0.75 inches too short. It should be possible to mount the lower end of the cushion below the level of the stock configuration by allowing the cushion to pass threw the A-arm. More on this in section 7.

2)Suspension geometry.
a)If the suspension travel is increased to 10”, mostly in the rebound direction the ride hight will end up at approximately the centre of the stroke. This is typical for passenger cars operating on smooth roads with an emphasis on comfortable ride character. By moving the ride hight up 2” the bump stroke is approximately 2/3 and the rebound is 1/3. This is more reasonable for good off road trail performance.
b)The suspension geometry is not too bad at this position however increasing the tire size to a 24” tire would improve the over all geometry (see section 8). With a 24” tire the ride hight is increased 1” by the tire and 1” by the spring setting.

8) CUSHIONS

The assumptions for the cushion mounting locations were discussed above in 6.1.b.
1) I believe the shortest possible shock would be in the range of 286mm (11.25”) at full bottom and 431mm (17”) at full extension. It is at the very shortest length available for Showa M/P shocks. My older Works catalogue says Steelers can be made to this spec. It may be desirable to move the lower shock mount down to allow the use of a longer and easier to obtain shock.

2)There needs to be some consideration for the actual length of the shock. I would recommend having the shocks in hand before finalizing the lower shock mount. This way small adjustments can be made to insure the travel is a full 10” but not more as that could cause problems with the ball joints.

9) SUSPENSION GEOMETRY

The following areas of the suspension geometry deserve some discussion. In this analysis no layout adjustment was considered to improve the suspension geometry. Rather the A-arms where lengthened and the result analysed to see if some items become unmanageable.



1)Scuff or ground contact
a)Moving the ride hight dose not affect the amount of side movement of the ground contact point as the suspension is stroked, simply the “0” position is moved.
b)The stock Pilot has a one side scuff of about 23mm. This compares favourably with the 400EX at 25mm (400EX has more suspension travel). The modified Pilot has a scuff of 59mm (+2.5” arms and 10”travel, move ride up 2” and stock tires). This is a big increase and could adversely affect control and predictability in jump landing or other events where both wheels see a large stroke.
c)To improve this the effect of a larger tire was looked at. As the suspension is stroked the contact patch moves away from the centre line of the vehicle. At the top of the stroke the contact patch is starting to move back in to the centre of the vehicle. A larger tire would move the usable range of the stroke up to an area where the wheel moves out then back in, effectively reducing the overall scuff.
d)With a 24” tire the scuff is reduced to 37mm. The camber change is larger than stock but probably acceptable, see 8.2. As the improvement was so dramatic a 26” tire was looked at also.
e)With a 26” tire the scuff is 44mm. With the 26” tire the ride hight adjustment is made with the tire and the suspension is allowed to stroke up an additional 2” from stock. As the suspension strokes up the shorter upper arm starts to pull the top of the tire in faster than the lower arm. The result is an increase in camber change. With the 26” tire the camber at full bump is 5 degrees, with the 24” tire it is 2.7 degrees. This is not advantageous therefore I recommend the 24” tire.

2)Camber change during suspension stroke.
a)The camber change in suspension stroke is almost equal in bump (-2.3˚ ) and rebound ( -2.1˚ ) with the static ride hight camber 0˚.
b)Reducing rebound camber change would improve stability. The 400EX rebound camber is -1.6˚ and the stock FL400 is -0.3˚ (very good). The rebound camber affects the stability in straight line (high speed) and initial control in landing jumps. Due to the imitations of this investigation there was no effort made to improve this condition, however it should be within the acceptable range.
c)The camber in bump is good. Negative camber in bump improves traction in cornering although this is a small effect as ATV type tires are rounded. This effect is much more important in road cars.

3)Toe change
a)The stock FL400 has a toe change of 30mm for each side, the 400EX 31mm. The proposed modifications to the Pilot would have a one side toe change of 72mm ( 56mm at bump and 55mm at rebound, 6mm negative in-between). This is on the excessive side.
b)Rebound toe change is detrimental to driving stability.
c)Some method to reduce this is needed and was assumed from the beginning of the investigation.

http://www.PilotOdyssey.com


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balljoint chart.jpg
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pilot to 450r cushion.JPG
pilot to 450r cushion.JPG [ 9.49 KiB | Viewed 3486 times ]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:57 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Ok I modified your drawing how about something closer to this or is a arch needed?


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pilot plus 2 arm.jpg
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
I have brought this up before you can still see the "cut here" written on the arm in marker :-)

Cut and fabricate a weld in bung that would be threaded to accept the new ball joint.

Might need to add some gusseting.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:45 pm
Posts: 877
holy cow
make it happen
I will donate set of arms if need


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Stoneman wrote:
holy cow
make it happen
I will donate set of arms if need


This is stalled until Lee gets back from camp.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Here is a suspension calculator for someone that wants to use software to calculate their suspension settings.
http://www.swayaway.com/TechRoom.php#

If you go with the FOX shocks they will do the same thing if you give them all the input numbers they need for FREE they also have a 30 day guarantee on the shock valving you just send them back they will change the valving then ship them back to you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:45 pm
Posts: 877
Where is Lee?
Yoda is waiting


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Where is Lee?


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 Post subject: Afterthought
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:22 pm
Posts: 389
Looks like afterthoughtmutosports is now listing an LT Kit for the Pilot on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Long-Tra ... enameZWDVW

Not sure but think he might want to provide some closeup shots of how the kit is mounted
but then again, that might be asking too much since "directions" are not included in the ad.

Pilotman

P.S. Buyers beware as you are putting your life at risk!


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 Post subject: Re: Afterthought
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:20 pm 
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Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Pilotman wrote:
Looks like afterthoughtmutosports is now listing an LT Kit for the Pilot on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Long-Tra ... enameZWDVW

Not sure but think he might want to provide some closeup shots of how the kit is mounted
but then again, that might be asking too much since "directions" are not included in the ad.

Pilotman

P.S. Buyers beware as you are putting your life at risk!


His products has had a long history of safey issues, I think anybody can easily see this in the videos, these videos are no setup, their was no staging, core LONG TIME members of the Pilot Odyssey group are in the videos, these products were also viewed by MANY other Pilot and Odyssey members who actually laid hands on the products and also looked at the design and thickness of materials used, they also were witness to the response by LIEwire and his lackey customer service, denials, stalling etc. the whole thing was very comical yet also pitiful and disgraceful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeIE6KpHsC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9epoTz5pfm0

If you look at the basic design its a hinge, the mounts that have bolts running through them are pivot points, even if you turn the bolts orientation 90 degrees now it will try to fold sideways, its a botched design, the intent was bolt on replaceable links so if you bent them you only needed to replace the low cost links, the dumbass was not even smart enough to look at the REPLACEABLE links on the Pilot or Odysseys roll cage to see how 2 bolts would fix his failed design. You Cant Fix Stupid

PLEASE go to my old board and ask Kiowa about his LIEwire nerfs and how after just brushing an obstacle they bent and the mount on the frame grabbed his throttle cable making his Pilots Engine run WIDE OPEN unexpectedly, ask to see the EXACT fix to this problem, having NOTHING to hide I am sure they will be more than willing to show you the FACTS and the fix and prove me wrong in public...

Since the time that the above has happen some have suggested forgive and forget, I agree but before one can forgive and forget and get on with life their has to be closure, no closure has ever been established to the above concerns, a weak attempt had been made but since its a safety issue the general public wants to see proof, proof would be pictures of the old design next to the new design along with a simple explanation how the new design fixes the old problems, I don't ever see this happening simply because LIEwire has never admitted their is a problem he just keeps blaming his wife. The path to closure and forgive and forget is fast, easy, responsible but the sad part its not in capable hands.

Equally as important and part of safety as well is his customer service, look at Turbotexas saga starting from day one, the first responders to Turbos plea for help was LIEwires buddy's, not just buddy's but also located in the same geographical location as LIEwire, if you look around the web at the SAME TIME Turbo was asking for help LIEwire was on other message boards posting, its NOT like he didnt have the TIME to help.

LIEwire had the perfect opportunity to step up and first tell his buddys to lay off Turbo then help him install the kit he shipped him, he didnt, this is a perfect example of exactly what kind of a human being he is, what kind of businessman your giving your money to, think about it LIEwire took the perfect opportunity to show the world just how good his company is, how good his design is, how good his products are, how good his customer service is, in a few short hours he could have had FREE ADVERTISING in front of a word wide audience and most likely sold many more kits, he could have at that point developed a set of installation instructions that would have answered 90% of future installation questions but what did he do, how did he reply and respond, remember the pictures he send to Randy with instructions NOT to show to anybody execpt people who have bought the kit and only AFTER they bought his kit, this also sends a very LOUD message to perspective A ftershockmotorsports.com customers.

I could go on for hours here but if people cant understand this much whats the point.

The darkside spin machine and LIEwires henchmen work over time trying to distract from these simple facts, the only reason they attack me is to try and soften the blow the facts provide, they spend more time attacking me than it takes to fix the problems they created and make the world a better place to live but "You cant fix stupid".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5508
Location: New Jersey
current YODA kit is really a nice kit, designed from a shade tree mecanics view well-I have 3 currently and really love them all, stock shocks or LT either way good kit for the money!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22105
Location: Chicago
Anybody know what the ball joint angles are for a TRX450 wonder if they are the same or more than the 400EX ball joints?

HEY Lee :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 1036
Location: CT
Ditch the ball joints and run the heim joints. More angle and adjustability. I kept eating up the upper ball joints. I made the switch to the heims and have not had any issues since.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Have you guys ever made a set of these and if so how'd they come out?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Location: Chicago
kbrott wrote:
Have you guys ever made a set of these and if so how'd they come out?


I went with the Yoda arms http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3825


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Are you happy with them? They are about 45 minutes away from me, I may try to stop by there.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:44 am 
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Location: Springfield Ohio
Ball joint angle, as I measured it, is the total included angle.
For example, if my chart says 40 degree angle that is 20 degrees each way from the central straight up position.



Heim joints are fine but there are two things to watch for.

1) The load capability in the radial direction is very good but the on axis load is much smaller.
A ball joint also has a lower load in the pull out direction, but the press in direction is as good as the radial.
Also if you use high angle bushings the load is decreased once the flat on the ball exposes the bearing surface.

2) Getting a hiem to seal is difficult, this makes them high maintenance items.
There are boot to try and seal them but the seal is not very good (in the ones I have seen).
In use, in a mud pit test an unprotected hiem can die in one days usage.
Some automotive ball joints are not much better than the hiem with a rubber boot.
ATV ball joints are well sealed and they are grease filled (even if mud found a path in the grease makes it difficult for much to get in).
As long as you don't tear the boot mud doesn't get in.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:24 am 
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Location: Chicago
Lee wrote:
Ball joint angle, as I measured it, is the total included angle.
For example, if my chart says 40 degree angle that is 20 degrees each way from the central straight up position.



Heim joints are fine but there are two things to watch for.

1) The load capability in the radial direction is very good but the on axis load is much smaller.
A ball joint also has a lower load in the pull out direction, but the press in direction is as good as the radial.
Also if you use high angle bushings the load is decreased once the flat on the ball exposes the bearing surface.

2) Getting a hiem to seal is difficult, this makes them high maintenance items.
There are boot to try and seal them but the seal is not very good (in the ones I have seen).
In use, in a mud pit test an unprotected hiem can die in one days usage.
Some automotive ball joints are not much better than the hiem with a rubber boot.
ATV ball joints are well sealed and they are grease filled (even if mud found a path in the grease makes it difficult for much to get in).
As long as you don't tear the boot mud doesn't get in.



Thanks for the info its good to see others can take more angle, I just realized that you typed TRX450 is that the TRX450R or the TRX450 Forman?

Looked at the Polaris parts they are 68.99 and 78.99 each OUCH!

I am currently happy with the ball joints I got from RICKY STATOR on my build, I am not a fan of hiem joints for every one bad ball joint I have seen 10 bad hiem joints, so far mine seem to be holding up but new out of the package I washed them with brake cleaner blew them out with compressed air then lubricated them well with Comet clutch lube and installed the hiem seals, I also avoid mud and water and don't blast them with a pressure washer or hose when I wash my Pilot.

Thanks again for the numbers.


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