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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:11 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
By the way check your caster at ride height after all that is where you going to set it up for static setting. Now go in to bump ( shock removed) and see if it changes thu bump to full bump and then full extended. I keep waiting for you to ask how to set up ride height for static setting. If not the numbers will change. No need to load for wichits yet. let see if they need to be hacked first and than work on solution so we have direction. Get those cornor weights. Yes the bath scale thing front and rear. With and without rider. If you have shock spring ddata this will help also. Rtae is key to wheel rates and back spacing of the rim ( scrub radius) needed.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:34 pm 
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Location: Colorado
Hey Adnoh, watching all of this make me think you do an alignment on the Tigers, when should we bring them over?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:54 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Drakman, I would like nothing more than wrench up those tigers. The thing to consider is I usally tare stuff apart to see what makes them tick. My Father really gets a kick out of it when He see's all the part and tools spread out all over the floor of the garage. I think it brings back memories to which He can laugh at now. With a coffe cup in hand a shake of the head and chuckly as He walkout the door muddering " That boy will never learn". Never feer Mom is hear to defend me. She ( Mom) always says " You know it your fault he's that way" to which Dad says "%@*&$@%%$@*& and Mom says "what was that ". Dad, "yes dear".

Speaking of Mom and Dad. I'am going to go have coffe with them and I ask eveyrone that has not called or seen parents latly to do so.


Tiger in the garage would be a dream come true. May need help getting it back together. Either way I'll have fun. You know while it's apart I may see what parts fit the pilot or could be made to fit. Did you say you had spare Engine.

The new house will have an ATV room in basement. How wide is the tiger, just in case. Can I get red with honda motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? ))? FYI Tobey got me fuel injection books to read to help understand what I heard in the webber motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) to relate to the torgue and hp #'s. What I came upwith so far is the stroke at taht crossover may have produce a pre enightion in the mid range to which they have retarded the timing to fix and alter the torgue curve so it did not fall flat. If so they would have damaged the motors before release and since fixed. Anybody have data on pre release revolts. The issue may be resolved alos by changing the intake tract and fule pump pressure ont he injector in the mid allowing the responce time to increse washing cylinder to contorl lean and the preegnition. Just some thought on what I have read so far. I would like to know a little more on type of injsection systems. If correct the HP #'s can be increased alot. If they install a turbo on these some one must already now how to fix. Does the turbo come with a throttle body change in area since the charge to stoichiometric rate changes effcts torgue range via plenumsize and lenght. Expect some more on this later in revlot thread as I get a handle on enjection and some fact to support or denounse theroy. I find the enjector math very interesting,thewya you can calculte the max Hp for one is cool.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:59 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Drakman I just reread. Them, meaning more than one Boy O Boy. Could use one to put the other back togethter. Man I will be in la la land all day. This could turn into a party at Adnoh's house. I bet others would like to have crack at those tigers. Sorry, just day dreaming a little.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:43 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Colorado
adnoh wrote:
Drakman, I would like nothing more than wrench up those tigers. The thing to consider is I usally tare stuff apart to see what makes them tick. My Father really gets a kick out of it when He see's all the part and tools spread out all over the floor of the garage. I think it brings back memories to which He can laugh at now. With a coffe cup in hand a shake of the head and chuckly as He walkout the door muddering " That boy will never learn". Never feer Mom is hear to defend me. She ( Mom) always says " You know it your fault he's that way" to which Dad says "%@*&$@%%$@*& and Mom says "what was that ". Dad, "yes dear".

Speaking of Mom and Dad. I'am going to go have coffe with them and I ask eveyrone that has not called or seen parents latly to do so.


Tiger in the garage would be a dream come true. May need help getting it back together. Either way I'll have fun. You know while it's apart I may see what parts fit the pilot or could be made to fit. Did you say you had spare Engine.

The new house will have an ATV room in basement. How wide is the tiger, just in case. Can I get red with honda motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? ))? FYI Tobey got me fuel injection books to read to help understand what I heard in the webber motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) to relate to the torgue and hp #'s. What I came upwith so far is the stroke at taht crossover may have produce a pre enightion in the mid range to which they have retarded the timing to fix and alter the torgue curve so it did not fall flat. If so they would have damaged the motors before release and since fixed. Anybody have data on pre release revolts. The issue may be resolved alos by changing the intake tract and fule pump pressure ont he injector in the mid allowing the responce time to increse washing cylinder to contorl lean and the preegnition. Just some thought on what I have read so far. I would like to know a little more on type of injsection systems. If correct the HP #'s can be increased alot. If they install a turbo on these some one must already now how to fix. Does the turbo come with a throttle body change in area since the charge to stoichiometric rate changes effcts torgue range via plenumsize and lenght. Expect some more on this later in revlot thread as I get a handle on enjection and some fact to support or denounse theroy. I find the enjector math very interesting,thewya you can calculte the max Hp for one is cool.


Wow, most of this injection stuff is way over my head! The Tigers have throttle bodies, I have heard of people putting turbos on them, but have not seen it done. I thought that the Revolts used the same Engine as the Polaris FS and FST which is the turbo version, maybe there is some discussion on them that

Yes we have a complete spare Engine with throttle bodies and wiring harness. In the past I had blown so many engines that we thought we needed a spare, but with these, we haven't had the same issues as I did with the two strokes and Geo Engine, probably because we left them alone and run them stock, or at least pretty much stock. If you would like to look one over very closely, it is sitting in a crate at Ted's house and you are welcome to take it and look at it.

The Tigers are just under ten feet long, the width when sitting in normal droop is 74 inches, but by lifting up the rear a bit, they narrow up to just under 72 inches to just barely get into Ted's trailer.

You can get them in many colors, I don't know exactly why he used the GSXR engines instead of Hondas. Does Honda have a 750 inline Engine that is competitive? In the Tornado, he uses the 1300, and from what I hear none of the other major makers have anything competitive with that Engine.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
OK I drove here around a little bit today, and had one issue with the steering, it pulls a little to the right, and turns real quick to the right, and not well at all to the left... I Put the little angle finder on the steering wheel and the right goes 34* and the left turn only went 25*. I will tear it down again and see where I went wrong... I won't be able to drive it much until I get my master fixed...


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 Post subject: camber
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:25 pm
Posts: 70
Did you make sure your frame was good and level from side to side and front to back before taking the measurements?If the frame isn't level, you won't get accurate measurements....If the frame matches the pilot frame, why not get some of Yoda's arms, or some stock pilot arms and put on it....It would have to be better than the j arms that was on it originally....
Just curious,but why are the jam nuts needed on the balljoint stems?Looks like you would get more adjustment if the nuts weren't there....If the a-arms are threaded for the balljoints,there is no way they could back out unless the stud came out of the spindle.....Just a thought....
Redman


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 Post subject: Re: camber
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:49 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
redman wrote:
Did you make sure your frame was good and level from side to side and front to back before taking the measurements?If the frame isn't level, you won't get accurate measurements....If the frame matches the pilot frame, why not get some of Yoda's arms, or some stock pilot arms and put on it....It would have to be better than the j arms that was on it originally....
Just curious,but why are the jam nuts needed on the balljoint stems?Looks like you would get more adjustment if the nuts weren't there....If the a-arms are threaded for the balljoints,there is no way they could back out unless the stud came out of the spindle.....Just a thought....
Redman


The jam nuts keep the ball joints perpendicular... if not there they will cause the spindle to change position! Thank you for the input!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 am
Posts: 3294
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Good pionts Redman,I wouldn't remove the jam nuts, the threaded stem on the ball joints needs the jam nut to hold the threads tight inside the bung, if no jam nut then over a period of time the slight slop in the threads will damage both the stem and bung threads.


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 Post subject: Re: camber
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
redman wrote:
Did you make sure your frame was good and level from side to side and front to back before taking the measurements?If the frame isn't level, you won't get accurate measurements....If the frame matches the pilot frame, why not get some of Yoda's arms, or some stock pilot arms and put on it....It would have to be better than the j arms that was on it originally....
Just curious,but why are the jam nuts needed on the balljoint stems?Looks like you would get more adjustment if the nuts weren't there....If the a-arms are threaded for the balljoints,there is no way they could back out unless the stud came out of the spindle.....Just a thought....
Redman


Yes I did have the frame at the same angle as when at ride hight...


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File comment: here is where I placed the angle finder...
0408091544-00.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: camber
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:25 pm
Posts: 70
Turbotexas wrote:
redman wrote:
Did you make sure your frame was good and level from side to side and front to back before taking the measurements?If the frame isn't level, you won't get accurate measurements....If the frame matches the pilot frame, why not get some of Yoda's arms, or some stock pilot arms and put on it....It would have to be better than the j arms that was on it originally....
Just curious,but why are the jam nuts needed on the balljoint stems?Looks like you would get more adjustment if the nuts weren't there....If the a-arms are threaded for the balljoints,there is no way they could back out unless the stud came out of the spindle.....Just a thought....
Redman


Yes I did have the frame at the same angle as when at ride hight...


Gotcha on the nuts...I wasn't thinking...As for the angle,the gauge measures from a true plumb line or level line...As far as the gauge is concerned, it will measure castor from a true level line...In other words,if the frame is at ride height but sitting at a 2 deg. angle,due to unlevel ground or surface, then the angle will be 2 deg. off from what the finder is showing....Same with camber...If the frame isn't perfectly level from left to right,the gauge will show a difference of how much the frame is out of level....You can see a difference in the change as the suspension travels with the gauge without leveling everything up, but a comparison from one side to the other with the machine just sitting at ride height will not be accurate without the machine being level....
When measuring castor,is there a referance point on the a-arm mounts or frame that they shoule be in relation too?
Redman


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I gotcha and yes it was level on the ground from left to right... the front to back was set at the same angle as when I am in the car...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3620
Location: Wichita ks
Sounds like you have a handle on it now. Good luck on your racing and have fun. I really enjoy the racing post. Thanks, Rich.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
adnoh wrote:
Sounds like you have a handle on it now. Good luck on your racing and have fun. I really enjoy the racing post. Thanks, Rich.


Thanks for the Help Rich, I got it together and rode about 15 minutes to see where she was at... It needs more adjusting. It pulls ever so slightly to the right on asphalt road not scary bad but enough to make me want to re-do it with the tires on this time. (the toe might be off?) It also needs work on the steer stop area. It will turn right too sharply, and real wide to the left... I put the angle finder on the steering whel and at full lock left it read 25* and full right it read 34* so I will re look at that also... I might have to take it apart several times to get it right!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:20 am
Posts: 204
Location: Waxahachie, TX Southern border of Dallas.
Man I wish we were closer I would love to have a wrenching buddy.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
kingjason wrote:
Man I wish we were closer I would love to have a wrenching buddy.



LOL I am not much of a wrencher, but sometimes 2 heads are better than one!!!
I sometimes go to Marble falls to ride and I will let you know if I go!!! Just watch here I usually post...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
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Location: Wichita ks
Your welcome. Before adjusting toe check all the tire circumance with fabric tape. Set the dia equall right to left rear and right to left front. This is to say set the left rear at lets say 5 lb's measure the dia. Then set right at 5 lb and measure. if off and I be they are set the right dia by adding or delelating pressure then do front the same and test before changing anything. As far as the lock issue center stering wheel levle with levle across handle bar and the frame levle then mesure right and left lock to see if its a stop or balljoint or tie rod bind issue. Then jack up wheels of of ground then check again. Also while at ride height setting check the distance from the center of frame to center of hub each side and if it's off set one side or the other to match than set toe at ride height.

I would like to make sugestion on setting since you went ahead and built up before getting all the mesurements. If as advertised a pilot set up set the camber 1 deg postive and set toe 1" toe out. Now test cornoring. Then reset camber to 0 leaving toe alone. Do the camber change using upper ball joint only one turn in at a time on each side equally. This changes the toe setting as well as the camber. Then set camber 1 deg negitive and leave toe alone. If you had caster I would change as well but not avalible. What this will do is dial in you cornor under steer and than over steer change over under accerlation. This is achieved in a couple of different ways. The camber at wheel lock is effectd by the caster setting and amount the shock is compressed under laod as well as how far the wheel lays over and the amount of laterial weight transfer. I would also change the rear track width by 1.5 "alowing a quicker set. If you offset rims in the rear goes with wider and test the best setting and see if it changes. Let the car take set for cornor
( being netural and no accerlation or breaking) than turn in once the car corning traction takes hold start to roll back into the throttles not cap it, roll into it. Than see if the car pushes or comes around. This being your base line. Then make first steering adjustment test in the same manor than reset and test agian. Now take the best setting and then put your compression adjusters in the mid position. Test cornor. Than full rightsetting test cornor and then test full leftleft setting. What your looking for here is after the car takes set and you turn in at which point you can get back on the gas and come out of cornor under power heading down straight with less correcting input at the wheel. Now if it like full right set in mid position and start clicking right. You do not want full compression or a spring rate change may be in order. Once you find a nice setting. test the inpact compression harsh hit and landings. Write down the setting before doing hash inpact testing. What you want is to use all the shocks stroke. If it bottoms that ok as long as it don't bottom on every hit. If its to hash( stiff) backoff adjuster a click or two then test and test cornong. If it to soft then stiff up a coulpe of clicks and test hit and cornor. Split the diff and than go back to cambe rsetting one tuen out test adn than one turn in see which is best at that compression setting. You do not want the car looking at the inside of the straight but the outside looking down the striaght. This is the fastest way around the cornor and the fastest straight speed before next cornor. What is happing is the corning force on the tires is changing to accerlation forces which like to go straight and push the car. As you accerlate you take corning traction foce and turning it into accerlatin force. This is a vector amount of the total traction to say you caint do both at the same time. Most call this drifting the cornor. This is why you roll into the throttle insted of gapping it. You want to gragly change this action in relation to steering input. So the quicker the car takes set after breaking for the cornor and the quicker it turns in the sooner it can accerlate and achieve the fast straight speed. If it cornors qicker it runs quicker. The faster you slow for the cornor and take set the quicker you cna turn in and power out. There is times you must drive in deep but make sure you adaquate breaking and breaking traction and wait for the car to turn in using corning traction or she will push to the outside causing you to let off gas so the front tires can get traction agian.

When chasing razors and the like do not follow them into cornor. They have a bad body role and cause them to apex early which will cause you to scrub to much speed. You should be able to set up outside and turn in under them and take them on the outside on exit. Be sure thers not anothe car on there rear. You should anounce yourself by taking the inside line before cornor getting there attention and then set up wide for turn in. While there pushing and worring about you let you car take set in cornor than role into throttle and driffting to the outside and passing them on exit. You will be up to speed before they can get up to speed and catch you. This of course once the car like to turn. Just thought I would share some opservations with you that I noticed chasing them at the dunes. Once you get an idea on how this works you will be hooked on suspion and palying around finding a very happy setting.

Once you find the best setting you can do qick cambe change for differnt tracks. if it take a softer compression chage you camber to dial back in steering. Here is wher the caster comes in. You could just roll back negitive caster or roll forward depending on type of track and coring traction avalible as well as surface areas. need more compression add postive camber to the setting or dial in negitive camber which will dial in camber for you. This is why I need to know arm #'s to see what caster effect it had on camber during bump The pilot is set of to do this. The trx arm's have a greater camber change thu bump due to the caster change rate thu rake at lock. Basicly quicker stering with less input.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Location: Wichita ks
Kingjason, he's a blast to wrench with. I had a great time wathcing and adding my two cents worth while he put on his new tie rods at LS. Plus he's fun to be around.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
If as advertised a pilot set up set the camber 1 deg postive and set toe 1" toe out

Is that one inch? on the toe out?
1 deg positive camber is out on the top?
I might have some time this weekend if I can get my brakes fixed... first...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:46 am
Posts: 5257
Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
I played with the preload one time at a track near the house, and by tightening or lowering the spring, it stopped a lot of the body roll like in the picture below, but it made the whoops really bad or rough... I have seen most of the utv races are raceing on MX type tracks so I think I will have to learn to control the roll and keep the softness of the suspension...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:23 am 
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Location: Wichita ks
Yes 1 deg positive camber with the toe set at 1" toe out. As you change the camber toward negitive using the upper ball joint adjuster the toe will change toward toe in. This will also show if the set up want more caster or not. If not no work to be doen on upper arms. If so the upper will need to be replaced or altered. If as "H" says you can get more caster by adjusting the ball joints out you can get a little more caster then retest the set up. If the whell fells heavy turned out then turn both in and reset toe and test. The whell should want to self center easier with little effert if caster is set right.

You can control the roll angle with some role stifness by adding compression damping and or spring crosover or both. If you run lot of sag or springs at zero staitc pre load ( no tension on springs when fully extended, relaxed ) the crossover rate on dual and triple rate will need to cross over sooner to the stiffer spring adding role stiffness. The compression adjusters on the shocks will also add stiffness. If the compression adjusters can not dial in without big change go back to static compression setting and change spring crossover collors. If you adjust the compression rate to stiff it effects the rebound and increases the harsh fell over small bunps. You want to combat role by spring rate and compression only. No shock preload for this. prloaad is for ride height only. This is why we start with pre load and rideheight for static settings. By playing with the camber setting and role yo will find the point were the car role and camber work at its best withthe track width and get the best corning traction.

Look at your pic see how the insde tire showes positive camber on roll. look at the rear also your taking to much traction off them with that much role. If you reduse the roll by 1/3 the front tire will be zero to neg camber and the rear will also decamber and get more traction. Your rear should be able to be set to camaber negtive ( small change only with little toe in)on role alowing the car to role and the tires with the most lateral weight on them have more contact patch area improvong corning and accerlation traction.

Cool pic. got more, looks tuff.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:43 am 
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Location: Chicago
Let that body roll, the weight will shift and the outside tire will dig in and TURN, the front is to light on these cars even when your off the gas and no body roll the inside tire has so little weight its not helping the turn much unless your going about 5 mph or on a paved surface...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:19 am 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
Actually when that pic was taken I was drifting or sliding to much, and correcting with the steering into the spinout... I have different tires now that make it break lose easier, but will have to get a better feel for them once brakes are fixed


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:35 am 
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Location: Chicago
Turbotexas wrote:
Actually when that pic was taken I was drifting or sliding to much, and correcting with the steering into the spinout... I have different tires now that make it break lose easier, but will have to get a better feel for them once brakes are fixed


When you widen the front and not the back it will also affect the steering greatly, not to say it wont work it just steers much different than running the stock widths, being adjustable you should be able to dial in your shocks and suspension to where you can make the car do anything at any speed you want :-)

After all you been through I would load it up and drive it to andoh's house and have him work his magic on the whole car ASAP then you can put problems behind you and just enjoy it for the next 10+ years doing only the regualr maintenance of checking the top end every season, adjusting the front brakes, replacing the rear brake pads, cleaning air filters...


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:02 pm 
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Location: Seguin, TX (near San Antonio)
hoser wrote:
Turbotexas wrote:
Actually when that pic was taken I was drifting or sliding to much, and correcting with the steering into the spinout... I have different tires now that make it break lose easier, but will have to get a better feel for them once brakes are fixed


When you widen the front and not the back it will also affect the steering greatly, not to say it wont work it just steers much different than running the stock widths, being adjustable you should be able to dial in your shocks and suspension to where you can make the car do anything at any speed you want :-)

After all you been through I would load it up and drive it to andoh's house and have him work his magic on the whole car ASAP then you can put problems behind you and just enjoy it for the next 10+ years doing only the regualr maintenance of checking the top end every season, adjusting the front brakes, replacing the rear brake pads, cleaning air filters...


That has crossed my mind several times! It would be a great learning experience also! I haven't worked in 7 weeks so I am concentrating on getting back into the swing of things and getting the piggy bank built back up! I am sure there is a rv park nar by I could stay in the toy hauler to keep from imposing too... :-)


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