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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Muddboggers Pilot Engine was making knocking noises he went through all the usual
checks trying to pin point (tell us what you did I forget Mudd) where the noise was
coming from, the Engine was "just rebuilt" so looking inside was last on the list.

After eliminating everything other than inside the Engine he took the top end off
and post some pictures, one thing lead to another and he ended up sending me
the top end for evaluation and here is what I have discovered so far.

Time for my rant, what was done to the top end of this Pilot Engine was nothing short of a
crime, I was told the work was performed at a shop by a mechanic, maybe that shop didnt
do the damage to the engines gasket surfaces, maybe it was old damage done by a home
rebuilder but they should have corrected the problems before rebuilding the Engine and
handing it back to the owner in exchange for a bunch of money.

This top end is a prime example of poor mechanical skills, it goes back to the quote
I have on my web page .

"Engine rebuilding is nearly impossible without the right tools. Some guys try to
use the “caveman” method—big hammers and chisels. As a result, they usually
do some stupid thing that ruins expensive Engine components." A good start is
to buy and read a factory service manual! it is a invaluable tool and includes
pictures so you can see what is inside before you pry it apart.

When working on a Pilot Engine you can rebuild the whole Engine using
only hand tools there is no need for any power equipment and I suggest
if your not a expert well experience mechanic that you don't use power
tools and only use hand tools on your Pilot or Odyssey, for example
most of the bolts you will remove on the Pilot Engine are threaded into
aluminum one quick zip of the impact or battery drill can do great damage
to the threads, forget all you have seen at NHRA when they tear down
a Engine and assemble it, that Engine uses special fasteners that were
design to be taken apart thousands of times using power tools.

This Engine has easy to see hammer marks on the outside where someone
at some time used a hard face hammer to beat upwards on the cylinder
I can only assume to separate it from the crank cases, in the past I have
seen guys drive a screwdriver between the mating surfaces also, they
make plastic dead blow hammers for non destructive removal of your
cylinder, you also can stick a piece of wood in the exhaust port and
lift as you tap with the plastic hammer to remove the cylinder I suggest
not prying between the reed cage and crank case.

It appears the gasket surfaces were damaged by cleaning with a abrasive
wheel on a drill or something similar when all the guy needed was a
new single edge razor blade and a light spray of carb cleaner, the carb
cleaner will soften the gaskets and they come right off, you don't need
any special caustic "Gasket Remover In A Can" here just a little time.


Attachments:
File comment: At first one might think this cylinder was ported but if you look closer you can see that is not the case what was done was a little cleaning up no real material was removed.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
You can see the depth they were able to reach using what ever tool they were using to
port with, looking at the dark gasket left stuck to the botton of the cylinder I would
say it was not a Honda gasket those for the most part are green or almost blue in
color, while looking at the gasket surface you can also see that someone in the past
has used some sort of powered gasket remover, STUPID! There is no use for a power
tool to clean gaskets.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Another view of the "porting" you can almost see that the roofs of the transfers
were not touched but they put a knife edge on the port divider.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Someone did spend some time on the intake side cleaning things up, no gains to be had here
maybe they started but never got time to finish?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
The head gasket was leaking and for several reasons, they did use a Honda gasket.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
I removed the studs on the cylinder and using a razor blade gently scraped away the rest of the
head gasket, you can see the marks where some sort of power tool was used to remove gasket
material in the past, I then put cylinder on my surface plate and lapped it a little to check and
see if the surface was flat, just as I expected it was not, if you study the next scan closely
you can see the high spots and low spots.


Attachments:
cylindertop.jpg
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Same deal with the head, same marks same uneven surfaces, this head has already been
machined in the past it was damaged again and needs further repair, the head is pretty
much junk and needs replaced, looking at the gasket surfaces and methods the moron
used to clean them it is no wonder the gasket was leaking you also can see where high
temp silicone sealer was used on the head gasket for some unknown reason.


Attachments:
headsurface.jpg
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 Post subject: Muddbogger CSI Part II
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here you can see there is no bevel around the port openings, you can also see the port
roofs and that they have never been cleaned up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
I could easily fit a .008 feeler guage at either end, the cylinder will probably
need to be bored...


Attachments:
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File comment: Quick and dirty way to measure clearance between the piston to cylinder if it were more like .003 or even .004 clearance I would have broke out the correct tools to measure it with.
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File comment: Here you can see I painted the top of the cylinder with a black marker then put it back on the lapping plate to better give you a picture how much damage was done using the power tools to clean the gasket surfaces.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
I dunno why the gasket leaked do you?


Attachments:
File comment: Dippity do da day with my power gasket remover hehe
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:17 am
Posts: 187
Perfect example of what not to do lol. What bore is the cylinder at. Can you save it and deck the top gasket surface about .010" to clean it up.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Cylinder is on second over bore already, I think the deck can be lapped flat again
by removing less than .001 from the deck, if it were mine I would just lap it and
use, if the deck is off I doubt it would be off enough to have any ill affects.

Who ever had worked on this cylinder in the past did more damage than good,
here is a list if what I found wrong.

Cylinder had been beat with a hammer in many locations as if they used a hammer to remove.

High temp silcone was used to seal the head gasket and intake gasket.

The wrong hone grit and process was used to prep the cylinder (ring seal)

The port openings were not beveled.

The gasket surfaces were cleaned with a mechanical means that left the gasket surface damaged
and not flat. (leaking head gasket)

The Engine was run with the ring missing from the exahust manifold I doubt the exhaust was sealing when the Engine was running.

The head gasket was not sealing, you can see the heat and pressure trails from the cylinder to the coolant passages.

Looking at the wear on the pistons and rings (not much wear) the Engine was put together with the wrong piston to cylinder clearances.

The piston pin required great force to remove this tells me the piston is slightly deformed (typical wiseco thing)

What am I forgetting?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:37 pm
Posts: 824
Location: Howell, New Jersey
So let me get this straight - you are NOT supposed to use a power belt sander to remove stubborn gaskets??


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
PilotNut wrote:
So let me get this straight - you are NOT supposed to use a power belt sander to remove stubborn gaskets??


That is up to you, if you want to create problems I say have at it





:shock:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5540
Location: New Jersey
Thanks for all the information and help Hoser!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Mudbogger wrote:
Thanks for all the information and help Hoser!!


Sure no problem I will post my findings on the bottom end once it gets here and
I get it apart.


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 Post subject: Muddbogger CSI Part III
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here are some more pictures and observations, if you look close you can see a
dark area leading from the combustion area to the water jackets, if you look
real close you can see the path ways the pressure was taking to get into
the coolant system I suspect the damage caused by power tools to the gasket
surfaces played a big part in this problem.


Attachments:
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
See the missing black coating on this head gasket, most of that was missing before the
Engine was taken apart and will be found in the coolant system, if you suspect a leaking
head gasket and are using the Honda gasket like shown here you will see what looks like
black pepper floating in your coolant.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
I circled the marks on the cylinder where it was beat with what looks like a hammer,
no real damage was done it just shows the caliber of mechanic working on the Engine
it is also a tell tale sign when looking to buy a used Pilot, you see pry or hammer marks
you should proceed with extreme caution before buying, it has been my experience that
more often than not that external damage like this means internal problems of one kind or
another, it is a great indicator of the mechanics mechanical skills.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
To remove the studs I like to use 2 nuts locked together then using the bottom wrench
(shown in picture) turn the stud out using a Vise Grips clamped on the stud is just stupid
there are also stud removers you can buy that are non destructive but I don't remove
enough studs in my life time to justify buying them.


Yes the two black circles are also where some HACK mechanic beat on this side of the cylinder.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:31 pm
Posts: 5540
Location: New Jersey
Wow Hoser, that's some amazing stuff.As I told you earlier, I tapped the cylinder very lightly with a rubber mallet and it popped off, I would nevr hit it witha hammer!!!I would like to tell people this is a prime example of a pilot purchase gone wrong, don't buy one of these like say- on ebay- without checking it out fully, I did on this one and you see the results!!!I had purchased this with documnetation of the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) rebuild so buyer beware!!I happen to be lucky-the seller is helping me out with the repairs because he is a stand up guy but you may get the 1 guy who says fu-then your really in trouble.At the present, Hoser has only the top end, the saga continues when he inspects the bottom end, which at the naked eye looks to be in as bad shape as the top end as well.Thanks Hoser for the hard work, as per the cylinder do you think its worth repairing or should I sell it to someone whos looking for a cylinder lets say for a big bore kit?or resleving it?Is the damage at a point where repiaring it isnt an option?I believe it still has 2 wiseco bores on it left,but will the the top of the jug be have to be shaved to get it flat?If so, will I need to double up the gaskets?Just for you guys who are new here-the heads are discontinued for these, so if you see one c=heck the thickness and if it meets specs, buy it, there a real bitch to get,also the jugs arent readily avail as they once were so please check these posting out so you don't get suckered like me.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Yeah I probably should have been more clear on the hammer marks,
they look old, the color of the aluminum where the hammer marks are you
can tell is not fresh and matches the rest of the cylinders corrosion color.

Yes the cylinder is not really hurt and could be put back into a usable and
reliable condition by resurfacing the deck and boring to the next bore, it
would make a great spare or replacement for the guys who don't mind running
a wiseco heck if the pistons are still available for the 465 kit then it could
be used for that also?


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 Post subject: once again hoser rules
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:07 am
Posts: 68
Location: Campbell, California
This is good stuff Thanks Hoser!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
I got Muddboggers bottom end in the mail today, here are some pictures.

This first one you can see the bottom end has been rebuild, the rod looks new,
you also can see hammer marks on the lobes of the crank where someone
beat on it with a hammer, they did this adjust the crank?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
You have to look close it is hard to get a picture of they look like little dents.


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