Board index

My Home Page

PilotOdyssey.com By hoser...


PilotOdyssey.com Chat Room

PilotOdyssey.com Photo Album

* Login   * Register * FAQ
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/smiley_cool.png PilotOdyssey.com Chat    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/find.png PilotOdyssey.com Google Search    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_tongue.png FL400 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_grin.png FL350 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_evilgrin.png FL250 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_unhappy.png Admin Email    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_grin.png PilotOdyssey.com V2.0   
It is currently Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:56 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Hoser Pilot Engine CSI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Today it was nice out, after lunch it got up to about 65 so I wanted
to try a few things to the Pilot so took it out for a ride testing,
I came back in and thought about the results of the changes and
decided I wanted to remove the top end to make a few internal changes
but since it was such a nice day I figured I would take one more ride,
I was scooting around the yard and let off the gas to navigate around a
tree and soon as I did the Engine died so I pushed it into the shop and
ran a compression test, 90psi, hmmm EGT never got over 1300, plug is
actually black not dark tan, removing the head tells the story, something
did a dance on my piston, at first I thought it was the crank bearings
again but after looking closer at the rod through the oil slot in the
center I could use a small pick and rotate the bearings around and
see parts of the cage that separate the bearings is missing, well not
missing they are stuck in the top of my piston and head hehe


So from what I have seen now part of the rod big end bearing cage came
loose and did a nice dance on my piston and head then wedged itself between
my cylinder and piston until it exerted enough pressure to over come the
oil film on the cylinder then the metal to metal created enough friction
to melt my piston and stick it to my cylinder wall until it deposited enough
to bring it to a screeching halt.


Attachments:
MVC-611F.JPG
MVC-611F.JPG [ 103.85 KiB | Viewed 3426 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
The piston still had metal stuck in it.


The rest of the pictures are here in the "Poofkaboom 2004" album http://pilotodyssey.com/coppermine/index.php


Attachments:
MVC-632F.JPG
MVC-632F.JPG [ 49.06 KiB | Viewed 3422 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:04 am
Posts: 477
Location: wallace,sc
It's allways sumpthin, aint it.sorry to see the damage.how bad is the cylinder?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
You can see some cylinder pics here http://pilotodyssey.com/coppermine/index.php
I will take more pics tomorrow that are better if we get some sun.

The cylinder should clean up I gave it a quick hone, I need to hone more and measure
to see if I can still maintain the proper clearances, its on a stock bore and was the smaller
bore so I should be able to hone and go to the next larger standard piston size.


Attachments:
MVC-636F.JPG
MVC-636F.JPG [ 42.2 KiB | Viewed 3416 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:26 am 
The cause of this failure is obvious and was totally preventable. If you had never let off the gas, this would have never happened


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:04 am
Posts: 477
Location: wallace,sc
Hoser were the bearings older or a newer set that were installed fairly recent? just wondering.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
This was a brand new crank from Honda in 2000, if you remember? last year the
crank bearing ball separator failed on the clutch side, the rivet that holds it together
came out and did a dance on my piston and head before getting wedged between
the piston and cylinder and coming to a screeching halt just like this time, perhaps
the stress of tying to drive a chunk of steel into the piston and head affected the rod
bearing? I dunno it appears not to be the bearing itself it is the carrier or separator that
is coming apart on the big end of the rod, 32 years of ATV's and cycles I have never had
a rod fail or wear out , if you grab this rod and check for up and down movements it feels
tight and good it also passes the side thrust washer clearance test, once it is apart we can
see if there is any wear on the pin and the rod.


Attachments:
MVC-691F.JPG
MVC-691F.JPG [ 36.52 KiB | Viewed 3381 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here is the piston from that failure.

It deposited a huge amount of aluminum on the cylinder wall that was easily removed using
acid, their was some lite scratches where there was steel on steel contact that were honed
out.


Attachments:
MVC-685F.JPG
MVC-685F.JPG [ 52.94 KiB | Viewed 3380 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:57 pm
Posts: 392
Location: Orlando
Sorry to hear about the enginer failure, you going to be able to repair the head?

One thing I noticed in the picture of the bearing, it's a Nachi bearing!!!!!What are you putting that crap in you Engine for????????? Althought that is a Japanese bearing they are not exactly considered a top quality bearing company...surely not something I would put in my motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Do youself a favor when you replace the bearing get a set from NTN or KOYO. spend the few extra bucks and protect yourself from that kind of failure a year from now.

Get the number off the bearing(on the outer race, maybe 5306 or 6306??) you should be able to locate a local KOYO or NTN supplier on the net.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:32 pm 
Who did your crank?


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
DC wrote:
Sorry to hear about the enginer failure, you going to be able to repair the head?

One thing I noticed in the picture of the bearing, it's a Nachi bearing!!!!!What are you putting that crap in you Engine for????????? Althought that is a Japanese bearing they are not exactly considered a top quality bearing company...surely not something I would put in my motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Do youself a favor when you replace the bearing get a set from NTN or KOYO. spend the few extra bucks and protect yourself from that kind of failure a year from now.

Get the number off the bearing(on the outer race, maybe 5306 or 6306??) you should be able to locate a local KOYO or NTN supplier on the net.


I was told the Nachi bearing was a high end quality bearing you have info they are lower
quality? I am willing to switch brands no problem there I just assumed since Honda was
using that brand the quality must have been high, I had asked around and others I have
asked agreed the nachi was good, I have no problems spending another 10 bux each for
a better bearing I don't want that bearing seperator to fail again if you can point me in the
right direction I am ready to go hehe.

I was running a .024 thick head gasked with that dome, I will put it in the lathe and take off
.025 from the squish area and see what it looks like I can cut a O ring groove in and not
use it with a head gasket, I also can cut off more if I want and shim it at the top to make
up the height difference , another words take off .050 then make a .050 shim and still use
the gasket.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 8:57 pm
Posts: 392
Location: Orlando
I may be wrong on this one but I don't beleive Honda (or any of the Jap cycle builders) ever used nachi as OE, the only thing I have ever seen OE was KOYO or NSK, both top quality bearings. nachi bearings are typically found at the auto parts store as a "japanese" replacement bearing.

One thing you may want to check on is the new ceramic bearings that are now available. I'm pretty sure they would be available for this application. They are about 1/5 the weight, supposedly a much tigther tolerance, very little if any thermal expansion, little if any wear, last forever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
The original bearings that came out of my Engine were nachi, the replacements I just put in with the new crank were nachi, the set I just installed in 2003 were from Honda and were nachi, muddbogger just ordered a set for his Engine and is having them sent here I will take pictures when they get here, I am not into the ceramics tell me about them when I think of ceramic I think of it as hard and brittle, how does it take to shock loading I hate to have them fail at the first signs of detonation or when a belt or clutch fails and sends a sudden shock load to them, where can I get further info on them? Where can I buy them?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:48 pm 
Man I wish I had a Pilot I got nothing.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here is a little more info and background, you might know all this already but it might help
others to bring them up to speed, in 2000 the clutch side crank bearing ball separator had the rivets fail and poofkaboom, these were the original bearings and crank, my rule of thinking was I know my Pilot had a lot of hours on it, the former owner rode it hard and I done my share of abusing so I figured if I buy a new crank and all new bearings and seals if they lasted 5 years I would be happy and doing good, after all the factory stuff lasted 11 years, then in 2003 the clutch side bearing ball separator came apart again same as first time so I replaced the crank bearings
and decided in the future I would just change them every other year, I am not happy they failed
2 times like they have I am also not happy about my rod bearing only lasting 3 years, once I
get it apart can see what caused the roller separator on the big end of the rod to fail.

I think I am going to order a 400 replacement rod and also order a CR500 rod so I can
compare them to each other, I have read 99% hype about this mod over the years and
have found very little facts, before I go with the 500 rod I want to know exactly what I am
getting, I know the small end is wider and heavier than the 400 I don't want to add reciprocating
weight (shorter bearing life) to only gain width on the small end, I have yet to see the small end
fail on a Pilot I have seen plenty of the big end bearings fail...


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:54 pm
Posts: 1360
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Hey Doug , Thanks for the tour it was GREAT!



Nachi is stock OEM honda main bearings


I think the mains are a nachi 6303 C3 ( C3 relates to internal clearances )

"With a higher clearance there is more tolerance of thermal expansion effects on the rings and rolling elements."


They are decent stuff.

Nachi has some different grades just like most and there are some knock off brands too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
I think the C3 clearance is only on the clutch side I will note this for sure once I get my Engine apart.

Found this

Ceramic bearings have the normal steel balls replaced by white ceramic balls.
The ceramic balls are made of solid silicon nitride. Ceramic silicon nitride balls are called
ceramic but have nothing in common with household dish ceramics. They are called ceramic
because it's easier calling them ceramic then silicon nitride. The ceramic silicon nitride
ball is by far, smoother, harder, lighter and stronger than one made off steel.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:04 am
Posts: 477
Location: wallace,sc
here is a little something i found on the ceramic bearings.http://www.bearingworks.com/materials.htm#ceramics http://www.bearingworks.com/ http://www.bearing-sales.com/


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here are more of the bottom end, if you look close you can see where a rod had
made contact with the cases at some time in the past, can you see the smeared
and smudged aluminum at the bottom?


Attachments:
MVC-647F.JPG
MVC-647F.JPG [ 75.6 KiB | Viewed 2483 times ]
MVC-648F.JPG
MVC-648F.JPG [ 65.75 KiB | Viewed 2483 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Plenty of rust on the starter terminal I will clean this up good before shipping back to
Muddbogger, this is a often over looked maintenance item, I like to spray it once a
year with battery terminal protectant.


Attachments:
MVC-653F.JPG
MVC-653F.JPG [ 67.11 KiB | Viewed 2481 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: bearings
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:38 pm
Posts: 228
Location: Knoxville, TN
I have a parts fiche that describes both the crank side and the clutch side main crank bearings as 6306 (c3) bearings, but honda has 2 different part numbers for them...doesn't that seem a little screwy to you?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: bearings
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
PilotHawK wrote:
I have a parts fiche that describes both the crank side and the clutch side main crank bearings as 6306 (c3) bearings, but honda has 2 different part numbers for them...doesn't that seem a little screwy to you?


One is a 6306 C3 and the other is a S6306 C3 go figure out what the "S" is for and you
might have your answer? Think read somewhere the "S" is a groove put into the bearing
for a seal? Extra clearance on the ignition side for more oil to reach the bearing?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Runout is .0045 service manual says .004 I would think with all the beating
the guy did on the crank with a hammer it would be closer.


Attachments:
MVC-655F.JPG
MVC-655F.JPG [ 77.29 KiB | Viewed 2462 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:17 am
Posts: 187
That is a lot. I had noticed in the earlyer pics the hammer marks. he should have at least used a brass or lead hammer. When I do a crank I get them to .001", .0015" max. No point in setting it up at the out of tolerence limit. Its only going to get worce over time.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
"Engine rebuilding is nearly impossible without the right tools. Some guys
try to use the “caveman” method—big hammers and chisels. As a result, they
usually do some stupid thing that ruins expensive Engine components."


Attachments:
MVC-659F.JPG
MVC-659F.JPG [ 58.75 KiB | Viewed 2451 times ]
Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], bullnerd, FloridaEdd, GAPILOT, Google [Bot], toby, Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group