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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
My new Power Bloc clutches came in, came without installation instructions, 2 clutches
in seperate boxes 2 sets of missing instructions, whats up with that? Pretty sure I can
figure it out I have had Power Bloc clutches for going on 9 years now, I see some design
changes requiring special orientation of a few parts during assembly anybody else notice
this? I bet the installation instructions give you the info, Ludedude has had his for 6 weeks?


Kind of surprised he has not mention any of this yet, maybe he has and I didnt see it?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Weight bloc


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
As MGR suggested I will number the blocks 1,2,3 and the clutch moveable face
1,2,3 so when ever I assemble the clutch the weight blocks will go back into the
same slot they were in when the clutch was 'broken in' or worn in so they will
always match and any clutch changes will not be affected by miss match weight
blocks and wear patterns


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
It has the correct belt width spacer?

I know MGR had a problem with his being the wrong width on his HRD clutch.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:30 pm 
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Location: Chicago
Looks about right .


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:09 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:17 am
Posts: 187
I did not have any instructions in mine either. There was also a burr on the leading edge of the shaft. Of cource I did not know that untill I went to pull the movable face off and put a small grove in the bushing. What are the the design changes. I have not used one before so I don't know how they were before. I am considering spraying Comet graphite on the weight blocks and shaft. Any thoughts on this. It would help the weight blocks move easyer in the retainers. How many weights are you using in each. I heard the recommended is 13 per. Do you know what stall speed that gives you. Is there a reference chart somewere.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:37 pm 
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Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Odyknuck wrote:
I did not have any instructions in mine either. There was also a burr on the leading edge of the shaft. Of cource I did not know that untill I went to pull the movable face off and put a small grove in the bushing. What are the the design changes. I have not used one before so I don't know how they were before. I am considering spraying Comet graphite on the weight blocks and shaft. Any thoughts on this. It would help the weight blocks move easyer in the retainers. How many weights are you using in each. I heard the recommended is 13 per. Do you know what stall speed that gives you. Is there a reference chart somewere.


Why don't you ask Ludedude first I don't want to step on any toes here by doing his customer
service work.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here while your asking ask him why they send 15 washers and you be lucky to
get 12 washers in the holder and screw on the cap guess the 9 extra washers
are so if you loose some?

Seems to me in my old blocks I could get 14 washers in .

He has had his for 6 weeks I am sure he knows by now...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:23 pm
Posts: 16
From Ludedude:

I'm asking Pilotsniper to post for me as 80% of the time I try I can not load you page anymore hoser. I was going to do a search to make 100% sure...but it errored out. I told you months ago they would not have instruction sheets....you have them on line do you not? Feel free to send them back and I'll refund your money. Go pay $265+ for one then with a manual.

I posted pictures and mentioned the new design....weeks ago. They're in the POG have been for weeks.

Since you won't delete my account...same as Moskito..I'm doing like he did and DH too... next time I'm able too..I'm logging in changing my password to some garbage and thereby self deleting my account and deleting all bookmarks and links to your site...same as Moskito.

Don't worry about stepping on my toes....they won't be any where near yours to step on.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
I am sorry but I was under the impression that the only reason you kept the first clutch
you got from PB was so you could test it and work out all the bugs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:03 pm
Posts: 727
I guess Ludedude has been so busy censoring his members that he forgot to include instructions, censorship is a full time job you know!

Some customer service, we already OWE him big time, his own words, so no use in asking for anything. It has to be his way or the highway!

I say get a new customer service person, the present one is worthless!

BTW, if you delete the bookmarks to this site, you will be the tech-less wonder's we all ready know you are, The Bullshit site!

If you want the bull go there, you want some bull AND ALL THE ANSWERS, your already home!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Odyknuck, there is so much to say here on clutching I don't know where to even start, there
are volumes of info on CVT clutches how ever most of the tuning does not apply to a
Pilot or Odyssey if you buy a snowmobile clutch tuning book and try to apply that info to
your Pilot or Odyssey you will be the guy running around with his Engine screaming all
the time and you will go noplace fast, what sux on the Pilot is unlike the 250 and 350
you can not really make any adjustments to the driven clutch, well you can make some
(more on this later) but you cant make important adjustements like changing the cam angle,
if you read in clutch tuning books they always have you adjusting the drive and driven together
as a unit not just the drive, this is one of the reasons why I have said over the years that the comet 102 is a waste of time and money all that adjustability you cant make use of.


As I pointed out in the last pictures your only going to be able to install about 12 washers
into the weight blocks hopefully that will be enough I wont know until I am able to install
the clutch that wont happen until I get my Engine back together and installed, If I
were you I would install as many washers as you can into the weight blocks (same number
in each block ) and take it for a test ride, do you have a tach on your machine this will help
give you feed back?

Unless your racing on a track where the terrain is pretty much the same or real consistent
your setting up of your clutch will be pretty much like setting up shocks it will be a compromise
at best, your not going to be able to stop and tune your clutch each time the terrain changes
so you need to work on finding something that works well for all you do, what you want is for
the Engine to be able to pull you to top speed as quickly as
possible with the least amount of wheel spin, the stock clutch engagement is IMO way
low the Engine struggles to get the Pilot rolling, it labors to climb steep hills, you only want
to raise the stall speed s much as you need, only you can figure this out that is why I suggest
you install all the washers you can and go for a test ride, I am told that Power Bloc has a
chart (never seen it) like all other clutch manufactures showing approximate RPM's using
different springs and weights I dunno why Ludedude didnt insist on getting this tuning chart
as part of the package deal, I am pretty sure it is only a few sheets of paper that can be
scan and sent by email , like anything else attention to detail is everything.

The tune of your clutch is going to be dependant on your Pilots state of tune (power output)
and your rider weight, I suggest you keep the Engine RPM's as low as you can and still achieve
the reaction you seek out of a after market clutch, all the time I see guys running around with
their engines screaming and they are going no place fast, they have their Engine bouncing off
the REV limiter (Pilot) for no good reason, if your Engine is modified I think you will find yourself
with a engagement close to 4200-4500 RPM and find it topping out at 7600-7800 RPM.

Before you spend a bunch of time on the new drive clutch look at the driven and inspect it,
a quick test is to use the clutch spreading bolt , screw it into the driven clutch and as you turn it
does the clutch separate easy or do you have a hard time screwing in the bolt to the point where
you have to excessive force to turn the wrench or are having a hard time holding the clutch as
you turn it? If so you need to take the clutch apart and make a few minor modifications to free it
up where it will work more easily.


If you havent yet go here and have a read http://pilotodyssey.com/pilotdriven1.htm
by cleaning up the rust inside the spring and by sanding down that white plastic
bushing to remove the scaring the rough rusted spring cut into the plastic you can
free up the movement of your driven clutch, don't, no need to replace the plastic
bushing unless it is broken or worn through, you want a worn out bushing here, being
almost worn out is a good thing here, once you get the clutch apart and start looking
at it and thinking about it you will see what I mean, think about spring wrap and the
way the cam rotation affects the tension on that plastic part you will be sanding down,
you also can apply a dry lube like dry slide or coment clutch lube on the outside of the
bushing.

If the driven is not working properly and moving freely on that bushing it will dramatically
affect your upshift.


Attachments:
File comment: Here is the parts you will be working on you probably don't want to hone the inside of the spring as I did just smooth it out, by reducing the spring tension you affect the spring tension and also the belt tension.
spring-bushing.JPG
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Getting back to your new drive clutch, finding the burr on the shaft is no surprise to
me fact is now days I expect it, it is hard to find quality and attention to detail in
even the most expensive products now days, like with pistons I expected to have to work
over my new Power Bloc with a sanding sponge and small file before installing.

Do not lubricate the Power Block clutch it is made from materials that are self
lubricating trust me you will wear out the clutch faces long before you wear out
the moving parts of this clutch, lubricating will only drive you nuts when tuning
the clutches as the lube wears off and the friction increases it will affect the
tune of your clutch.

After about 20 hours of use (more or less) you will notice your RPM's will drop
slightly and you will need to remove one washer from each block (maybe more)
this is normal the spring has to "set" war break in, what I usually do with a new
spring in my clutch is install the the weights I can and use the clutch for an hour
or so then drop back to what I normally will run this will help set the spring,
each time you take the clutch apart you will want to measure the spring free
length at some time in the springs life it will sag and need replaced, usually a
good indicator of this is you notice your RPM's drop and you need to remove
washers from the blocks to get it back.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 12:17 am
Posts: 187
I agree about not being able to tune both clutchs as a set does not give you much flexability. We are stuck with those limitations. When I had my 350s I was able to make use of the 102C tuning abilitys and the use of the 35 degree driven cam helped a lot. They come with a 4600 RPM stall speed and I felt it was to high for normal riding and opted for the red/blue spring that brought it down to 4100 RPM. That worked much better.
I have allready done the Pilot driven clutch modification as outlined in your artical. It made sense to remove the friction causing issue of the plastic bushing. As far as the Power block goes I am able to get 13 weights in each. The cap screws in just enough to cover the threads. Im going to start there and see how it works. I prefere that my motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is not screaming and prematurly wear it out. I agree that the stock clutch engages way to low and does not allow the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) to get into its power band.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here is something I discovered when I first open the box on this new clutch,
the blocks are a different width on each end, the older PB clutches were
not like this, the slots they fit into are also different widths, my measurements
are just general measurements and I will give them a tolerance of lets say + or
- .100 I say this because they are not a machined tight tolerance part they
mate to something that is stamped out, they have casting flash, flaws and rough
edges on them each one you measure is slightly different.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here is the pocket it fits into.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here is the pocket on the cover.

1.70 on the cover was measured at the top edge of the stamped steel pieces
trying to measure at the bottom was almost imposable because of the location.

I will ASSume since I don't have the factory instructions that you will want to
match the block ends with the slot that it would fit into the best, I see no advantage
to having one end of the block fitting tight and the other end being real loose again
I have no manual and no idea why the design change.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
You will want to assemble like so.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Using a home made clutch holding tool you want to compress the spring and
install holding tool and insert pucks.

See how the end of the shaft now sticks out?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:21 pm 
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Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
The clutch shaft is keyed to the cover by using a D on the end of the shaft
and a D washer riveted to the inside of the cover, there have to match perfectly
when you install and tighten the cover, the 'feel' for it method works but still
is not 100% you must be 100% sure the key is aligned perfectly if not expect
problems and poofkaboom in the near future, this is the old design and I am
not sure why they shipped these clutches using the old design, I would have
requested the new style without the D washer setup, years ago it never had
the D washer then they went to it then found out it was a problem because
owners were not getting it together correctly and havening failures then they
stopped using it, on my first PB clutch that is now on my wifes Pilot I removed
the D washer by grinding the heads off the rivets and driving them out with
a small punch and got away from the D washer all together, I don't recall if
I used a wear washer (goes between the clutch cover and end of the shaft
on the non D washer clutches) or not when I removed the D washer. I will
find out and take pictures when I remove her clutch.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
D washer in cover


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Cover on the holder tool makes it easier to put on the Pilot, now I can
carry it over as a assembly and install on the Pilot, I would put on the
end of the crank shaft and tighten the bolt thumb tight then remove the
holding tool then I would rotate the outer cover back and forth feeling to
make sure the D washer or D key was correct and seated properly as
I continue to snug and tighten the bolt, once you have it "snug" you need to
stop and rotate the clutch assembly to ensure you have clearance between
the back of the clutch and the bolts that stick out of the side covers on the
Pilots Engine, don't torque it up tight then discover it is hitting.

If it is hitting you need to remove the clutch and provide clearance by using a
file to remove part of the head of the bolts that it makes contact with and or
true up the back side of the clutch.


Attachments:
Mvc-725f.jpg
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File comment: You can see where a slight variation in the casting or the head of the bolt will create a interference problem.
clearance.JPG
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here is another picture of the 'hoser clutch holding tool' it is a one handed
device I fabricated, the ATVR "billet" clutch holding tool is a 3 handed tool
I can fabricate you one for 29.95 including shipping and handling in the
USA


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22133
Location: Chicago
Here is another 'hoser clutch holding tool' you use to hold the clutch
whilst you torque the clutch holding bolt, I will take pictures in the future
showing it in action its design and length play an important part in it being a
one handed tool not 3 handed.

$19.95 including shipping in the USA


Attachments:
clutch hold.JPG
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 Post subject: install question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:45 pm
Posts: 877
When I install my new pb, do i install the fixed face first & torque it down/seat it? or do i install the entire setup(fixed,moveable & cover all at same time & torque it down? Follow me?


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