Board index

My Home Page

PilotOdyssey.com By hoser...


PilotOdyssey.com Chat Room

PilotOdyssey.com Photo Album

* Login  * FAQ
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/smiley_cool.png PilotOdyssey.com Chat    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/find.png PilotOdyssey.com Google Search    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_tongue.png FL400 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_grin.png FL350 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_evilgrin.png FL250 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_unhappy.png Admin Email   
It is currently Mon May 19, 2025 7:21 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
Attachment:
File comment: Here's the case split
20190413_151652.jpg
20190413_151652.jpg [ 83.56 KiB | Viewed 2356 times ]

Its slot cleaner than it looks but the cage didn't have much left at all


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
Here is the cover to the torque limiter clutch, the one on the right is off the spare tranny
Attachment:
File comment: Damage to the torque limiter cover
20190407_113822.jpg
20190407_113822.jpg [ 111.74 KiB | Viewed 2343 times ]

You can see it's just like hoses, broke the funnel guide that directs oil into the shaft and ground into the cover,
I'll see if I can fix it but more likely I'll use the unmolested cover and put the damaged one on the spare to keep the dust out


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 1779
Location: Ma
Nice work so far, I’m looking forward to how you fab up the secondary bearing support.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
That'll be another topic, first things first.
But while were on the subject, I am not sure about what a support tied to the frame will work with the tranny and Engine able to flex.
Just something to ponder over for now,


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3636
Location: Wichita ks
Good morning I have a few questions
How long has that Engine been in the pilot
Did you recently put on a new belt
Did you do the Engine install or use a manufacturing build plate
When you did the Engine install did you do a belt Center to Center check
What do the transmission mounts look like
Is there a plate installed between the Engine and the transmission to maintain spacing


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
Adnoh
The Engine has only one hard season in the dunes on it.
It had a new belt from the start, and was replaced recently.
It has a Farr Offroad mount plate which does tie into the trans.
Alignment is good.
When you say center to center check, I'm assuming to verify the Engine and tranny are parallel, no I didn't do that the farr mount allows to slide the Engine side ways about an inch but there in no adjustment for clocking.
Tranny mounts look good, I thought about using something stiffer but I would be worried then about cracking the frame.

I am getting cracks in the Farr mount, I'm planning to get the clutch balanced and pull the top end to check that the pistons are close to the same weight

Thanks for the interest, all input is welcome


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
I have everything now except the case gasket, anyone know where they can be found?
Attachment:
File comment: Peices parts
20190420_113632.jpg
20190420_113632.jpg [ 109.71 KiB | Viewed 2311 times ]

Anyone think of a reason not to just use Honda bond?
I know it would bring the cases together several .000" from design, not sure if that would be an issue or not?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
All seals and bearings are out now.
Interesting that bearing 22 they left it sealed on the inside even though there is a line hole from the torque limiter part of the case. It lasted 30 years, not planning to do anything different


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2868
Location: East Peoria IL
So you found the right bearings for the input shaft? Are they the same dimension as OEM? If so please post part numbers.

I would use a gasket, not sure if the tolerances will allow just sealant. I thought veshra made a gasket for the gearbox????. Can not remember what brand it was for sure.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
Attachment:
20190420_161626.jpg
20190420_161626.jpg [ 45.43 KiB | Viewed 2306 times ]
Bearing p/n is listed on the parts list, I don't understand why the previous trouble locating. 62/32

Now what I do not have a perfect match for is seal #18, I have a seal that will work but it is built a little differently. I may use the one I bought or may reuse the original, it looks to be in good condition. I was told that I may be able to pull the metal seal protector and install it in the new seal but it has not come out easily and I don't want to damage it until I decide.
Attachment:
20190420_141148.jpg
20190420_141148.jpg [ 47.48 KiB | Viewed 2306 times ]

Attachment:
20190420_141138.jpg
20190420_141138.jpg [ 55.15 KiB | Viewed 2306 times ]


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:17 pm
Posts: 3636
Location: Wichita ks
Thanks for the answers.
Belt: I've seen where some one replaced the belt with out checking size, width etc. I have also seen where one shredded a belt and did not remove driven and clean debris and check seal and lead to failure.

Yes was making sure the shafts we're parallel or slight obtuse from the case.

curious if the Engine transmission was tied together solid allowing the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mounts and transmission mounts to work in unison.
Concerned about shaft Center and belt Center numbers.
I would consider removing the driven spring and the drive spring reassembling the clutches on the rebuilt transmission checking your Center to Center and run outs for the belt used.

this could contribute to bearing failure and or cracking the Engine mount.
Just some thought since I have never seen or worked on this combination.

if you decide to remove the driven spring also check all the roller bearings in The driven.
if you do remove the driven spring check it to make sure it's within spec or shim for correct poundage.
This could and will affect the load on the drive.
Few years back I posted a driven spring correction chart

The last thing you want is the drive to outrun The driven this lead to bearing failure. That is to say driven bottomed out and drive still expanding. If so you need to shim driven or take away from drive. Your rpm range will help with that.

That is where center to center plays a part. Once the driven locks out in the drive expands it takes the parallel shafts and makes them acute. That's where you'll see the stress on the bearings. with a new belt this is more crucial than already a stretched belt that is adjusted to this situation. V about where and stretch.
The angle we're on the Bell will be a Tell-Tale for this.
You will need to log the new belt and then check it then compare the difference. If there is this will impact we're on the drive in the driven until it wears to an acceptable level.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7910
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
I believe that bearing is 17mm wide but the Honda one is only 14mm wide.
You might want to check this out to confirm that bearing will fit.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2868
Location: East Peoria IL
canadian oddy wrote:
I believe that bearing is 17mm wide but the Honda one is only 14mm wide.
You might want to check this out to confirm that bearing will fit.



I 2nd that. Measure it before you install.

I thought both input shafts bearing were special thickness.

I beleive many guys run the seal without the steel protector.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
canadian oddy wrote:
I believe that bearing is 17mm wide but the Honda one is only 14mm wide.
You might want to check this out to confirm that bearing will fit.

Well, you are correct, that bearing is 17mm wide, I'll need to tale it back to the supplier to see if they can locate a 14mm wide bearing. I don't really understand why they have the wrong number on the parts drawing?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
adnoh wrote:
Thanks for the answers.
Belt: I've seen where some one replaced the belt with out checking size, width etc. I have also seen where one shredded a belt and did not remove driven and clean debris and check seal and lead to failure.

Yes was making sure the shafts we're parallel or slight obtuse from the case.

curious if the Engine transmission was tied together solid allowing the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) mounts and transmission mounts to work in unison.
Concerned about shaft Center and belt Center numbers.
I would consider removing the driven spring and the drive spring reassembling the clutches on the rebuilt transmission checking your Center to Center and run outs for the belt used.

this could contribute to bearing failure and or cracking the Engine mount.
Just some thought since I have never seen or worked on this combination.

if you decide to remove the driven spring also check all the roller bearings in The driven.
if you do remove the driven spring check it to make sure it's within spec or shim for correct poundage.
This could and will affect the load on the drive.
Few years back I posted a driven spring correction chart

The last thing you want is the drive to outrun The driven this lead to bearing failure. That is to say driven bottomed out and drive still expanding. If so you need to shim driven or take away from drive. Your rpm range will help with that.

That is where center to center plays a part. Once the driven locks out in the drive expands it takes the parallel shafts and makes them acute. That's where you'll see the stress on the bearings. with a new belt this is more crucial than already a stretched belt that is adjusted to this situation. V about where and stretch.
The angle we're on the Bell will be a Tell-Tale for this.
You will need to log the new belt and then check it then compare the difference. If there is this will impact we're on the drive in the driven until it wears to an acceptable level.


The belt I removed had not totally self destructed, just had a strand of Kevlar that I heard whipping around, I'm hanging onto it just in case I'm down to my last belt on a trip and need something I can limp back to camp with. While I have it apart I'll disassemble the clutches and service.

I'll check the alignment before reinstalling everything, the Engine and trans are tied together with the Engine mount so the assembly is using the two front stock Engine rubber mounts as well as the 3 transmission mounts.

Do you know of a thread that explains checking the center to center run out? I'm thinking I may replace or duplicate the Engine mount and will want to make sure it's right.

I'm using the rotax clutch, it has been modified to use the narrower Pilot belt. I do have lots of information on the driven clutch and it's operation and tuning so I'll be sure study up and check that out as well.

how to check to see that I don't have the "out run" situation?

Thank you for the the assistance as well as everyone on this forum


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
edit to remove double post :shock:


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
rmesser wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
I believe that bearing is 17mm wide but the Honda one is only 14mm wide.
You might want to check this out to confirm that bearing will fit.



I 2nd that. Measure it before you install.

I thought both input shafts bearing were special thickness.

I beleive many guys run the seal without the steel protector.


I will measure everything now.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
Kuma wrote:
rmesser wrote:
canadian oddy wrote:
I believe that bearing is 17mm wide but the Honda one is only 14mm wide.
You might want to check this out to confirm that bearing will fit.



I 2nd that. Measure it before you install.

I thought both input shafts bearing were special thickness.

I beleive many guys run the seal without the steel protector.


I will measure everything now.


#15 68x28x18 bought from Honda
#16 65x32x14 the one I got is 17mm wide :(
#17 62x35x12 the one I got is 14mm wide :(
#20 72x35x17 bought from Honda
#21 85x45x19 replacement is correct
#22 47x17x14 bought from Honda

so now on to the search for the correct bearings 16 and 17


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2868
Location: East Peoria IL
Now just a thought. Sincxe you have an extra input shaft in the gearbox with the excess play, and since you have the thicker bearings, I wonder if you could have the stops on the shaft ground down to accommodate the thicker bearings. This could solve your problem of excess play and not having oem bearings. The thicker bearing could also help to withstand the extra power you are introducing, along with the additional external bearing support. Just a thought.

I wouldn't try to turn or face the collar stops on the shaft. I would only use a lathe mounted grinder, as the shaft is hardened.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
rmesser wrote:
Now just a thought. Sincxe you have an extra input shaft in the gearbox with the excess play, and since you have the thicker bearings, I wonder if you could have the stops on the shaft ground down to accommodate the thicker bearings. This could solve your problem of excess play and not having oem bearings. The thicker bearing could also help to withstand the extra power you are introducing, along with the additional external bearing support. Just a thought.

I wouldn't try to turn or face the collar stops on the shaft. I would only use a lathe mounted grinder, as the shaft is hardened.


I just reread hoser's old post with your input I saw that you were thinking about this before and I seem to recall seeing another post that someone was doing that, unfortunately I don't recall where that was or if it was successful or not, there was some issue with the shift fork interference. so there is actually an issue with both sides.

just thinking out loud, wonder if there is any way that the off the shelf bearings could be ground down to the proper width?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 am
Posts: 2868
Location: East Peoria IL
CO posted the link to the thread you are looking for, in this thread back on April 16th. Back on page one of this thread.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
rmesser wrote:
CO posted the link to the thread you are looking for, in this thread back on April 16th. Back on page one of this thread.

Thanks CO, I knew I saw it somewhere :-)

I am looking at different ways of handling this mess, all options are on the table at this time, for the #17 bearing, there is room in the case to machine out 2mm of the bottom of the bore, then the torque limiter would either need to be cut 2mm off the end or possibly no change to that as long at there is enough clearance on the cover.
for the #16, there does not appear to be enough in the case to machine out 3mm and keep the seal mounted, could possibly use a sealed bearing, and then maybe a thinner seal on the outside, I have not looked into this.
Another option is to pursue the thread CO posted, I need to look further into that, it seemed the biggest hurdle with that is getting the shifter to have the clearance.
A third option that I'm looking at is to have the oversized bearings ground to the proper thickness, I have priced this at roughly $125 for a lot of 10 and then they would need to be ultrasonically cleaned, I have not priced this. they said to grind one it would be about $60.
the only problem I see with grinding is that there will no longer be a radius on the outer edge, that you would need to put on with a dremmel tool or with a lathe, I don't recall how much of a radius is at the bottom, thinking how much of a radius would be needed on the bearing if any, I know without it would be very difficult to install.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7910
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
Kuma wrote:
I am looking at different ways of handling this mess, all options are on the table at this time, for the #17 bearing, there is room in the case to machine out 2mm of the bottom of the bore, then the torque limiter would either need to be cut 2mm off the end or possibly no change to that as long at there is enough clearance on the cover.
for the #16, there does not appear to be enough in the case to machine out 3mm and keep the seal mounted, could possibly use a sealed bearing, and then maybe a thinner seal on the outside, I have not looked into this.
Another option is to pursue the thread CO posted, I need to look further into that, it seemed the biggest hurdle with that is getting the shifter to have the clearance.
A third option that I'm looking at is to have the oversized bearings ground to the proper thickness, I have priced this at roughly $125 for a lot of 10 and then they would need to be ultrasonically cleaned, I have not priced this. they said to grind one it would be about $60.
the only problem I see with grinding is that there will no longer be a radius on the outer edge, that you would need to put on with a dremmel tool or with a lathe, I don't recall how much of a radius is at the bottom, thinking how much of a radius would be needed on the bearing if any, I know without it would be very difficult to install.


Actually there is another option for this mess.
I posted it in my first comment on page 1.
Drop a few dimes and make some calls.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
canadian oddy wrote:
Kuma wrote:
I am looking at different ways of handling this mess, all options are on the table at this time, for the #17 bearing, there is room in the case to machine out 2mm of the bottom of the bore, then the torque limiter would either need to be cut 2mm off the end or possibly no change to that as long at there is enough clearance on the cover.
for the #16, there does not appear to be enough in the case to machine out 3mm and keep the seal mounted, could possibly use a sealed bearing, and then maybe a thinner seal on the outside, I have not looked into this.
Another option is to pursue the thread CO posted, I need to look further into that, it seemed the biggest hurdle with that is getting the shifter to have the clearance.
A third option that I'm looking at is to have the oversized bearings ground to the proper thickness, I have priced this at roughly $125 for a lot of 10 and then they would need to be ultrasonically cleaned, I have not priced this. they said to grind one it would be about $60.
the only problem I see with grinding is that there will no longer be a radius on the outer edge, that you would need to put on with a dremmel tool or with a lathe, I don't recall how much of a radius is at the bottom, thinking how much of a radius would be needed on the bearing if any, I know without it would be very difficult to install.


Actually there is another option for this mess.
I posted it in my first comment on page 1.
Drop a few dimes and make some calls.


You are correct, I do need to check on that 9mm wide bearing and see if it uses the same number and size balls as the stock bearing, if so then spacers seem reasonable as an option, those are available here, I think.
as for 123bearing as a source, I tried calling and got a machine, left a message but it did not seem like it was for a bearing supplier, maybe? their email contact does not seem to work either so hopefully I'll hear back from them.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Pilot Tranny rebuild
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 am
Posts: 1476
Location: Norco, CA
canadian oddy wrote:
Here we go, found it:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7022


just went through this topic again, kind of ended without any closure, I want to hear the results, sounds like Odyknuck was able to use the 17mm wide bearing but how is it doing? he also has an added bearing on the input shaft outside of the driven clutch, I sent him a PM and an Email, hopefully he will get it, has not been on the board for nearly a year.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Baidu [Spider], c5racer, Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group