Lee,
When I did the FL800 the Engine bay is reall small for a twin cylinder 2-stroke, I still have to remove the Engine in order to remove the primary clutch. With a couple more inches would make all the difference. The bottom frame rails are splayed stock so when you stretch the frame where I do it make sence to widen it. When the two frame pieces are apart 12 inches they are already 1.5 inches wider than the rear half (12" cromo inner sleeves sticking out of the front half matched up to the rear half). I'll try and get a picture of this. Now when I made the FL800 I only extended it 4.5" so it was not that drastic, but yes I angled them in to match up with the stock width rear half. At that time I did not know what to do with the A-arm mounting point so I just left it stock width.

Hoser,
It looks grey inside, and on the bottom of the tube it has slight surface rust. It does not look like our fence pipe that is galvanized inside, but I would not be supprised it some kink of Zinc rich coating was used. Maybe a different galvanized process. I was under the impression that the Pilot was powder coated? On this pilot (Rust basketcase) seems much different than my FL800, or maybe the first owners powder coated the pilot after the long travel was installed.

First, paint came off real easy as was expected from the looks of the first pictures, but even where the paint was good it removed much easier.

Second, the frame had much more internal stress from the first frame. When cutting the FL800 I was sure Honda used stress reliving techniques because when I cut it with a band saw I could pull the blade through the same cut. With this frame it would bind on blades, made larger cut than necessary when using abrasive dics as the stress would pull the metal into side of the blade. Maybe I had a good frame with the first one or just lucky? Do you know if Honda stress relieved their frames?

Wayne

P.S. Lee
You have to wait on Engine (or engines ?) choice, I have a couple possibilites and once I narrow it down and make sure it's works.

I have no idea if Honda stress relieved their frames or not, I wonder if "Lee" (not leegb) might know ?

How come you didnt stretch the Engine compartment like ATV Racing did on their sled Engine conversions? I think I have pics some place... I am not sure where I seen the pics last, I might have to dig out some of my old archive CD's and do some searching, I might have post them on my old site years ago.


Their stretch pretty much moves the rear tires back and gives you more Engine compartment room.

Hoser,

I can't remember seeing ATV-R's stretched frame, I would like to see some if you could find them. I have seen others, one in particular that stretched it 10" inches i think, and I did not like the look IMO. I like the look of untucking the side from the front fenders, it looks closer to stock becasse the front and rear fenders are in the stock location. Also where I stretch it the extra room can be used for driver or Engine, it also widen the drivers compartment. By lenghtening it back 4" the top 1.5" bar moves out 1.5" (if I remember correctly).

Wayne

More pictures of where I'm at. With the inner sleeves it allow one to move the frame in and out to get a feel for how the frame will untimately end up. The inner sleeves and the "extension" pipe is cromolly .058 wall, I try and use no less than 3" of sleeve going into the main frame. Sometimes this can't be done like on the bottom tube where the Trailing arm bolts go through, but the longer the better.

Wayne

More

More

The plastic is not fitting well at 6", the main problem is the bottom trailing arm mount is pushing out the side plastic.

Wayne

Can you notch the plastic where its pushing out?

What if you put a piece of metal in to fill the gap between the plastic then paint it red to match the plastic?

Ok, I really wanted to go 6" so I could use some of it for leg room. I was first comtemplating on cutting the seat mounts off and moving them backwards, or add on to all 4 mounts, too much trouble. I decited on moving the lower frame member (seat mount bar) backwards 1.5" and by doing this it will in turn move the trailing arm mount back by the 1.5" and then give me clearance with the plastics.

Hoser, The problem is the last plastic mount (which sticks out) hits the trailing arm about where the bolt goes through. This sticks out too far IMO.

Wayne

Plastics at 6.5" back, 1.5" in front and 4" in front of Engine bay.

Problems I ran into with stretching THIS frame.

I should first state that I in no way trying to sell anyone on doing this type of modification, nor am I selling plans, selling this machine, ect. Quite the oppsite I'm doing this because I like to, I e-mailed Hoser about this subject before I started this post.

I also feel that I rescued this Pilot from the grave, yes I had some reservations on my first Pilot about cutting it up, partly because it was a nice machine, but I like the benifits of stretching the frame. One could leave the stock Engine/trans and use the length for leg room and elbow room or use the room for a snowmobile motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). How it handles big jumps ect. I don't know as I have not jumped mine more than 5' in the air, and don't care to. Will it ball up with the stock suspension? Don't Know. Do I feel it is strong, of course I do, it has twice the metal thickness because of the inner sleeve.

With that said I will disclose all problems I encounter, I will not sugar coat this to make me look better, lord knows I need it though. I do know some of my fears of doing this modification for the first time would have been less if someone before me tried this, documented it and had success. The last thing I want is someone to try this and get left with a cut up mess and in need of another frame at who knows what price.

Wayne

There is probably a good reason for it but why do honda use those bolts on the seat mounts (bottom picture)

Its looking good I cant wait to see it all come together.

Leegb, not sure what you are asking. The bolt is a flanged washer bolt with a pilot. The flange spreads the load out, this is needed because the slot has a lot of area under the bolt head that is not supported, a flanged bolt has more area under the head to compensate. The washer prevents the torquing of the bolt from trying to spread the slot apart. Otherwise the turning action of the bolt would try to widen the slot with repeated installations. The pilot on the end of the bolt makes it easier to start the bolt in a mass production setting. You place the bolt in an impact gun, jamb it in the hole and the treads start correctly almost every time.

I beleive i have one of the "almost" bolts on my pilot

Look closer at the end of that bolt, need a picture? I cut then end off all mine (hoserized ) because its a pain in the ass to get the first part started, IMO I think the end of that bolt was something to do with safety or to keep the bolt from falling all the way out when making seat adjustments than speed of assembly, I cut them off to make it faster and easier to start them when removing and installing the seat, I bet you could drive the Pilot 1000 miles with a bolt lose and it would never fall out it would just dangle their.

Maybe AKPilot can post a pic of his if he has not cut the end off like I did

Hoser, Yes I bet you are right, A safety thing to stop the seat falling out. Just imagine if the seat dropped out whilst driving along, Your pilot trying to run over you whilst still strapped in

Frame is comming together nicely IMO, it is better than the fl800. Always the second time around seems smoother. Widening the frame makes the difference, all the bars are much straighter this way.

More.

More

More

Now that the width and length is what I want, my Engine of choice is going to be a 4-stroke Yamaha Rage motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). If I could not get what I wanted I was going to keep it stock for now, eventually maybe my son to put in a Polaris 800. I originally purchased the Rage motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) to go into a Rorty's new stadium car because the size seemed too large for a Pilot Engine bay. The motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) was enroute when I purchased this Pilot, well my mind started turning. Here is some pictures of the inital setting in of the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )).

Note: In picture #1 the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is in backwards. I really wanted to mount it like this and I believe it is possible it is just not practical. Their was 2 ways I was looking at doing this. First manufacturer to reverse a motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) in a sled is Fast Inc. sno-go the Blade. It did not use a jack shaft/chain case, it turned a gear/reduction on the right side that turned the drive shaft, so the Engine spinning counter clockwise to the clutch again turning counter clockwise to a gear turning with the secondary clutch to a gear mounted on the final drive turning clockwise. Anyway the Blade is no longer in production but Arctic cat uses the ACT which is a gear box that uses planitary gear to get reduction. I thought if I just got rid of the planitary gears then maybe it would work. I decited for simplicity sake and the fact I would have to have reverse cut helixes I'm mounting it with the carbs in the back of the seat.

Wayne

Four stroke reliability, what sort of price range are those engines?
So are you using a Arctic Cat gearbox?
Looking good will this one have double roll over hoops like your 800.
Lee.

Lee,
I chose the Rage motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) because the RX-1 (4 cylinder) is even wider, and at 120 H.P. it is down 15 H.P. from the Fl800. The reliablility factor never played a part in my decision, Ive gotten get 4000 miles out of my sno-gos before doing a top end, and then it's only piston and rings, and the only wear item I can think of is the reeds, and the carb boots. So why then would I purchase a slower and heavier Engine? That's just not like me at all.

1. I'm still not positive how good my pipe is, sure I have learned a lot about pipes and have had some real dogs, but how good is my current one and am I really at 135 H.P. as it now sits? With 4-stroke I don't need to worry as much, just get the header length the same and it should be fine.

2. Throttle pull, my thumb gets really tired after about 15 min of riding. luckly for my thumb I don't ride in a large place, if I ever ship it out I'll definetaly have to address it. The problem comes from pulling the stock 10' or so throttle cable that is married to a stock snowmobile cable which in turn pulls the carbs and oil pump. I could eliminate the oil pump but on the Polaris' main bearings they like the constant oiling, major part of the reliablility factor in the bottom end. There is four oil tubes, two to the carbs (high volume) and two to the Engine block above the mag and PTO bearings.

3. I've been told how good these 4-stroke motors put out torque and this is what I'm after more so than H.P.

4. It's something different, and I really was not looking forward to another Gas tank/Engine mount, although it would go smoother just like the stretching is.

I have ordered another RPM transmission for this Pilot also, partly because I have been taking measurements form the FL800 on Engine placement. Also I'm happy with the results of RPM. I will also make the top roll bar look the same, even the white color, it will however be wider. The extra width has made me think of moving the Fl800's radiator to the new Rage Pilot because the roll bar will protect more of it. I need to start looking for a radiator to replaced the FL800 one. Four inches sticks out side at the top which made me build the aluminum structure the radiator now sits in. I still don't like the possibility of rolling in it, I was going to make nerf bars that went up to the top bolts of the roll bar.

I have taken a couple measurements for those interested, I would have taken more but without the plastics it might not be of much use to those tracking my progress.

1. Width of the cockpit at the widest part, 1.5" bend to bend, 32 7/8".
2. Roll bar mount, This will be my second mount of the double hoop, 30 13/16"
3. Bottom bolt hole of front roll bar mount to bottom bolt of back roll bar mount (stock location) 46 1/8"

If any of you want a specific measurement just ask.

Wayne

On the throttle how about making a adapter, old stock throttle cable actuates a belcrank that has the sled Engine cable hooked to it?

Foot throttle.

Pull throttle like the FL250 but then then you have to do something with the front brakes...


This is why I like the watercraft carb, butterfly with little or no spring tension, its like the stock Pilot or lighter.