Im sure this has been gone over before but I couldnt find the answer so im asking again, what is the difference between the two?

Im putting together a reed and intake setup for a Engine I have, slowly but surely im converting all my Pilot's to the 88/89 CR250 reed cage per Hoser's recommendation but they are getting harder to come by, so while searching for one I found the 86 and 87 CR250 has a 6 petal design but also has the stuffer Hoser likes, what would be the difference between the two?

Also I have been using Reed gasket B part# 14133-430-306 to go in between the intake and reeds but the cut out is to big and doesnt match up to well so while searching I found Part# 14133-KS7-306 this gasket can be made to match up perfect.


Update years and part numbers

Straight intake OEM Honda 78,79,80 CR250 #16221-430-000 http://pilotodyssey.com/BTmanifold.htm

Straight intake Hyper Racing 76-80 http://www.hyperracing.com/product.asp?prodid=61-141 (thanks sctydog5)

Straight intake Mossbarger http://www.mossbargerracing.com/product1.htm#CR125R

6 petal long stuffer reed valve 86,87 OEM Honda # 14100-KS7-700

4 petal long stuffer reed valve OEM Honda 88,89 CR250 #'s 14100-KS7-831, 14100-KZ3-003, 14100-KZ3-013 http://pilotodyssey.com/reed2.htm

intake manifold Pilot intake 350 manifold 350 intake

Heck I'll throw out some food for thought.Tip ratio/intake velocity/cfm at a given volmetric effency. No easy ansawer there. Reed material and thickness also plays into it. Look at it like mass and what it takes to move it. Larger the mass more strenght to move it . Reduce thickness and area it reduce the amount of force it takes to move it. Material type is relevant to flutter at high rpm. The cage angle plays into this as well. So does a 4 pedal have more tip mass than a 6 petal in cross sectioanl area. Using this theroy which will respond faster and allow for greater flow at a given velocity. Different Engine desgnes will have a difference on each. Plus the natural frequency of the Engine plays a part in the reed tip ratio.

thanks adnoh but you just confused me more, all I can find online is stuff about V2,V3, rad valve and those kind of reeds...... I run the fiber glass reeds from what i can tell from searching the web and from Hoser they last much longer, it seems all the MX and karting guy's run the carbon reeds but change them often all the Woods and GNCC racers and long life Engine builders use fiber glass reeds.



So......... no answers................. would one be better for low end or is the 4 petal just better all around?

to make it more confusing, has anyone tried a 8 petal mossbarger reed valve?

I found no huge differences in performance between the 4 petal and the 6 petal, the 4 petal reeds seem to last longer than the 6 petal reeds did, I only use fiberglass reeds, I have read too many negative comments on the carbon fiber petals, my main concern is the guys developing Engine packages on a dyno keep seeing all the gains of the carbon fiber reeds fading back to the same or less performance than the fiber glass petals in as soon as 20 minuted of run time, then you add in the short life of the CF its just not worth it, most big name racers have sponsors that give them wear items like reeds, spark plugs, oil chains brake pads so they don't even care how long stuff last.

I would do as "H" says if He is your Engine builder. Always do was is recomended by your Engine buider.

Here is some read on the mass relationship to velocity and cylinder charge. This also greatly effect jetting. This plays a big part in volumetric effency that effect the HP. This also improves on decreaeing the amount of burned gases in the combustion chamber upon stuffung and cylinder clearing.

Remebr this for discussion only, so please do not go out and bolt on a big assembly.


I would still do what "H" says thu.

I have not, if I cant find another 4 petal for my next build I will try the 6 petal, I have not tried to get stock reeds but you can get Boyesen Super stock reeds for both the 4 or 6 petal.

I am going to throw my 2 cents in on this thread too. First, all my reed experience is on 350s, some stock, some mild ported , some full race ported so take what you want from it. I have at least 15 or 20 assorted reed cages that I have tried. I have run the 8 pedal to the 4 pedals, assorted stock CR cages, and about every aftermarket cage out there, stuffers and reed spacers. Honestly, there is very little "power gains" compared to other mods( porting, intake system, exhaust, clutch,etc). They do seem to change the powerbands or flow at different RPMs ie. smoother through-out or harder hitting low or high bands. Maybe this is the info you are seeking?

Pilots are more of a torque based Engine(long stroke) and would probably benefit most from a torque port,clutching,pipe,36-38mm carb and reedcage with a stuffer like you have. My 350s are rev designed, shorter stroke engines so I build them accordingly. I like bigger carbs, no stuffers, and 4 pedal CR cages with Boysene reeds. I also have had great results with a Boysene Rad valve cage that I had the neck rewelded straight, ESR billet cage, and a V-force 3. The latter three use carbon fiber pedals which you do have to check for chipping periodically...and you should with the fiberglass also because I have chipped them up too. I do blend all my cages to the intakes for smoother flow which in turn helps performance...but you probably already knew that too. I should have lots of pics of things if you want to see anything.

Gary

How about carbon over glass.

http://www.boyesen.com/cwo/ATV/Products.

Good info Nuke Em

Thanks for your info.

to tell you the truth I have never just put a new reed cage on by it self to to see what it does all by itself, I always ad it as a package pipe,clutch,carb, and reeds. I do know that by cleaning up and matching the cage,intake and exhaust does make it more responsive by comparing with another buggy with the same parts but not cleaned up, HP wise I doubt you can tell.

Also I run the same package on all my Pilots some run in the Dunes wide open all day and some run in the woods off and on the gas all day this package works well in both conditions the only difference is I go up about 2 jet sizes in the dunes because the Engine gets worked about 200 times more in the dunes.

I have no data for myself...... I have only read through a ton of MX,woods racing, and karting boards about reeds and the consensus seems to be that carbon reeds work better at first but loose tension and fall off quickly and need to be changed often (about 4 to 1 to glass) and the glass reeds keep their tension longer and generally just last longer period.

this is just a conclusion I have come up with from reading on the internet, I have never ran carbon reads so I personally cant tell from experience.

Afastcar you mentioned a very good point that most over look. Engine load and the effect on jetting for Engine survival. Sound like glass is the way to go for 75% of riders. I would have thought is would have been higher like 90 to 95%. It would be interesting to poll Engine builder verse race mechnics. Wonder if "H" would set up a poll for the board. Whta's in your Engine. Than "H" can hit us with a dip stick.

Anybody can start a poll just start a new thread and right above the SUBMIT button you will see the POLL options, not sure what a poll like that is going to do other than to show the popularity of either or, I guess they could include why with their reply.

Heres a company that provides a set for both rev and tourge for both 4 and 6 pedal and a set for the 90 that may be a great choice for bolt on rev pipe applacation to stock porting with port clean up ( MT ).

Please note that the 90 pilot cage has three choices in the Cr chart LT, MT and HT in a 133 series.

http://www.carbontech.com/atv/honda.html

All ATC250R 107LT or 107HT 54.95
All FourTrax 250R 107LT or 107HT 54.95
All FL350 Odyssey 107LT or 107HT 54.95
89 Pilot 107LT or 107HT 54.95
90 Pilot 133LT or 133HT 54.95

If you're like us, your trying to keep your two-stroke ATV alive amidst the 4-stroke hype.
The problem with the older ATVs is that the manufacturers haven't been updating the machines over the years. In fact, most of the ATV's have fiberglass reeds and sometimes even steel reeds. This is old school technology! The easiest way to update and maintain your ATV is with a set of Carbon Tech carbon fiber reeds. And, Carbon Tech reeds are available in at least 2 versions for your ATV, a Low Tension (LT), designed for bottom end power, and a High Tension (HT), designed for top end power. Either one you choose, you will be getting the most durable, performance enhancing reed available on the market today.

Cr
78-87 CR250 107LT Low to Midrange Improved 54.95
78-87 CR250 107HT Top End Power Use Only 54.95
88-98 CR250 133LT Low to Midrange Improved 54.95
88-98 CR250 133MT Mid to Top End Power 54.95
88-98 CR250 133HT Better High RPM Performance 54.95
99-01 CR250 139LT Low to Midrange Better 54.95
99-01 CR250 139MT Mid to Top End Power 54.95
99-01 CR250 139HT Top End Power, Better for outdoors 54.95
2002 CR250 138LT Better Low End 62.95
2002 CR250 138MT Better Bottom and Mid (Best Choice) 62.95
2002 CR250 138HT Improved Top End Power 62.95
03-04 CR250 180LT Better Low End 62.95
03-04 CR250 180MT Better Bottom and Mid (Best Choice) 62.95
03-04 CR250 180HT Improved Top End Power 62.95
05-07 CR250 181LT Better Low End 54.95
05-07 CR250 181MT Better Bottom and Mid (Best Choice) 54.95
05-07 CR250 181HT Improved Top End Power 54.95
84-88 CR500 125LT Smoother Powerband 62.95
84-88 CR500 125HT Peak Power Increase 62.95
89-01 CR500 136LT Better Low to Midrange 62.95
89-01 CR500 136HT Improved Top End Power 62.95

There words:

We supply Honda HRC of Japan with our reeds because they last the longest and give consistant performance. Our reeds are available in different tensions to suit the track and driving style; Low Tensions (LT) are generally better for tight tracks, and High Tensions (HT) work better for long straights and wide open tracks. Use the same reeds that Scott Speed uses; Carbon Tech reeds.

The steel reeds were real hard to beat performance wise I have no idea what he is talking, about the only drawback was the cost for OEM's and the weight, back in the 60's they had problems with the metal reeds breaking every once and a while but I never seen or heard of one breaking outside of really old magazine articles referring to broken metal reeds in the 60's..

After reading the sales pitch sounds like snake oils to me.



WTF is that guy haha maybe I should start a slogan Use the reeds hoser uses lmao

What I really want to know is can he throw a set of them reeds across his shop and bounce them off the floor and they survive without a mark on them.

Gotta love advertisements especially when they go unchallenged, oh well I guess we better be happy we still can buy reeds this day and age, I know before I spend 60 bux on a set of replacement reed petals I will dig out all them old steel reeds I been saving for 30 years and start using them or I will do like the old guys did in the 70's and buy fiberglass material and cut out my own reed petals by hand with a coping saw.

There seems to be a lot of debate over reeds but I have never got into them that much. I upgraded my stock metal reeds to boyseen glass and did not notice any big differnace but who knows. One day when I get bored I may swap a few out just to see. I am getting to the point with the odys that I would like them to be as relaible as possible so I may quit trying to squeeze more power out of it.

As far as debate goes, it's more about choices available and what one can expect from there choice and value for the dollar. Sunblock glad to here you removed those metal ones. If an Engine chews a reed up one would want it to be glass or carbon to minimize damage. Lets say you are running metal and you have installed a rev pipe and this allows the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) to over rev. Over rev increases natural frequency of the Engine this also changes the power band of the Engine. An effect of over rev on reed is flutter at high rpm and Engine studder. One part of reed application is based on the ratio of this. This relates to tip ratio. I like to look at it as valve efficiency. Since most have installed clutches which brings in the clutch at a higher rpm and changes the spring rate for up shift the reed reaction also changes.The point is to modify your Engine safely to insure reliability. As one changes the parameters of an Engine one must also consider the related parts. It just so happens that reed are one of these parts. This part had a greater variable then most Thu. I have used metal, glass and carbon material for reeds and have tore a few up. I have cracked metal, split glass and have used this information and found why I think they failed and applied that to my choice when I installed carbon and made my cage choice. I do change them often so "H" is right and the general consensus is they have to be changed often. I have never ran the carbon long enough to fail or should I just say I have never had them fail. Both statements are true. I will share a little tip as well when it comes to the v- force 2 set up. They have a tension adjuster. How to use this just as questionable as the low,mid and high tension reeds themselves. The thread have shown that material thickness plays a part in there response time and flutter. So can a mid tension reed be installed with less static tension against it and have an effect. Since mass has to be over come with force ( not in every case) to move than based on this the added tension requires more force to move and changes the reaction time based of constancy flow at that rpm. Now change the tension and change the reaction. Just a thought. Or is the tension adjuster there to set the reed so they seal tight before instlation. What above reed tip shape and the way air flow around it and causes it to react. Boyesen has good read in his patents on this and a few studies have been done as well. This is one reason boyesen dual stage is a great choice. This may also be why he uses the carbon over glass for his pro series. Or it may just be hype to sell new products. The carbon will provide a better over rev protection from flutter without a thicker glass reed that responds and reacts slower.

I'm not trying to say carbon is the way to go and not saying glass is the way to go or 4,6 or 8 pedal is the way to go. They all have there good and bad points. True the glass is the beat bang for the buck in most application of reed material choice. Now lets factor in cage design and what works best with that. You will find that most who use a different type of cage ( angle, area ect. ), most only offer carbon reeds as there choice. Boyesen offers a cage/reed assembly however it does not fit the pilot and way designed for the 250's carb offset to realign the flow. Again good reed ( no pun intended) in his patents. When you have your Engine apart look at were the reed tips open and then imagine a line to the cylinder and see where it hits. What if the a better and multable line can be achieved to the area of the intake part of the cylinder that would reduce resistance to flow. Would this have an effect some what the same as intake runner lenght and design. An increase or decrease in Volumetric effency which effects HP and most importantly torgue and the torgue curve. Yes reed choice what ever the material has an effect on the tourge curve based off what I have read.

To make testing fast and easy do this.

Install your worse reed cage and reed petals or what you perceive to be the worse, then go take some speed runs, time distance thing, if you have more Pilots line them up and drag race them, document your findings.

Now install your best reeds and or reed cage or what you think is the best do the above test again.

If you find any reed cage or reeds that are more than --->............................................................<-----------------
that much faster than worse you let me know.

I never seen any data that even implied the carbon fiber over fiber glass was better in any way than fiber glass over fiber glass so I was left to assume they jumped on the carbon fiber bandwagon, read a bunch of implications in advertisements, you remember the birth of the carbon fiber reeds guys that cant even jet a Engine (they call them motors) or read a spark plug spread all over the internet that carbon fiber was better, their you have it without any proof what so ever it happen instant performance, guys still scratching their heads today trying to squeeze some out.

Here's my point of view. And yes I know, no one asked, but it's not like I care if you did or not.....

Anything carbon fiber, graphite, etc has a harder more brittle cellular structure and as long as they are not abused they will work fine, but they will fatigue and wear out a LOT faster. Ingest any foreign particles or have a backfire and that structure will be compromised and/or fail.

I look at them as throw-away items with a very short life span.

Sure you will get improved throttle response because they are more sensitive, but it WON'T last. Racer's will endorse these all day long, they get em free and replace them often so who cares.

I can draw a parallel for any of you fishermen out there, compare a fiberglass rod to a graphite rod, graphite is lighter, smaller diameter and more responsive, great huh? If you treat them like the delicate objects they are they'll last a long time, but how many of you just throw em in the back of the SUV, boat or worse the truck bed? Wait til you get even the smallest nick in it and you'll wish you never had it as it will snap under load. They're all the rage and the manufacturer's love them, higher price and a lot more sales (because they won't last anywhere near as long as fiberglass).

I have some fiberglass rods that are more than 40 years old and still work fine, but a graphite rod that makes it to 10 years is the exception.

When I replace anything I prefer something that will not need more maintenance than it's predecessor and reliability over performance any day. I'd rather win a race with a slower average lap time than have the best lap time and not finish.

Ody_Stable, good pinot of view.