Well after exhausting all sources to obtain the #16 bearing to no avail I have a solution. It does involve some minor lathe work however doable. The standard size bearing is 32 X 65 x 14mm however a 32 X 65 x 17mm is avalable. So what has to be done is to remove .118" off of the flange that the bearing rides up against. This flange is .431" wide now so removing .118" will not effect strength. The flange was more of a gear spacer than a support.
The flange I am refering to is the largest diameter on the pic of the shaft shown below. The bearing rides to the right of this flange. Removing the material from the inside of the flange will give the clearence needed to allow the wider bearing. There is however one catch to this precedure. You must install the shifting paw before you press the bearing in. The wider bearing will not allow you to install the paw after.

I think that's the solution we were discussing before its nice to know that it will work, wonder why Honda used the special made bearing for the assembly clearance issue you mention?

I wonder if their is a double row bearing available and if it would fit while you had it apart performing the upgrade you could upgrade to the double row bearing?

You see any lubrication issues caused by 3mm wider bearing?

Tell us more about the after market input shaft.

Below is a picture of the stock Honda shaft with the stock bearing installed you removed 3mm off the width to the right bearing?

Thanks

I think that's the solution we were discussing before its nice to know that it will work, wonder why Honda used the special made bearing for the assembly clearance issue you mention?
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I suspect they had the 14mm bearing made so the shifter paw would clear it for ease of assembley.
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I wonder if their is a double row bearing available and if it would fit while you had it apart performing the upgrade you could upgrade to the double row bearing?
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I do believe I seen a double row avalable in that size however I did not go that route. The bearing will be sticking out of the case 3 mm so I felt a single row with larger diameter balls would be better as it would be supported by the case.
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You see any lubrication issues caused by 3mm wider bearing?
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No
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Tell us more about the after market input shaft.
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The shafts were designed by Dave S. and I. It is in two pieces as shown so we could remove the driven clutch without removing the Gearcase or having a removable frame section. In the design we made them long enough to add a support bearing on the outer end. Then Dave made them in one of his CNC lathe's. The material used is 4140 steel.
After machining he sent them to another machine shop that specializes in spline broaching to do the clutch end of the shaft. just an FYI, when we first did Dave's Rotax 700 swap we welded the stock pilot clutch spline onto a 1" shaft to fit the Sled driven clutch. This approch was marginnal at best and wasted a good Pilot driven clutch in the process.
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Below is a picture of the stock Honda shaft with the stock bearing installed you removed 3mm off the width to the right bearing?
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Yes you would take off the material off the shaft on the right side of the bearing.

You guys talking Pilot or 350 gearbox? I was able to match all my 350 bearings & seals by bringing them into my local Kaman shop. The found all the right replacements. If you're talking Pilot...don't know on that.

You don't think you could use a double row bearing and just remove 6mm off the shaft?

You have the number of the bearing you used?

I bought a input shaft that RPM use to make and use the FL350 driven, I think its 7/8" shat? the longer shaft would be nice too so you could get the outer bearing support.

Some pics of my current setup can be seen here http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/view ... ilot+trans

I have not done the modification yet, I am waiting for the bearing (No.62/32) to come in. You may have clearence issues with the shifter paw having the bearing stick out 6mm. I will look tonight and confirm. Man that sucks on your gearbox.

Cool let me know, I have Mikes Pilot trans just about apart hopefully I will have it all apart today I will investigate the 6mm wider thing also, reason why I wanted to upgrade to the double row bearing is the added HP I have added to my Pilot having the extra bearing surface area cant hurt, a bearing on the end of the shaft would be the hot setup, not sure I need it at this point, my Pilot is a high mileage Pilot and the bearing that failed was the original.

Any plans on making more of the two piece input shafts, cost?

Yea I agree the extra wide bearing would be help support the load of a higher HP motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). Being you don't have the case supporting it I felt you could have some distorsion over time that may cause premature failure. Odds are it would be fine however i tend to be over cautious on things like that. The stock bearing I have would probably be ok however it has been in there for 20 years and it had that ever so slight click in one spot. It would be a matter of when not if it would fail especially with the 100 Plus HP of the 700 Rotax motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )). I will ask dave if he would be Interested in making more of the shafts and what his costs would be. I do know right now he is very busy in his shop so it would be awhile before he could persue them.

you guys are awsome - I knew some one would be able to figure out a solution.

Please keep in mind the bearing on the other side of the input shaft - i believe #17 - is also a special. The last time i checked with honda there were only 6 left. I bet when those are sold it will be discontinued. Maybe it would be a good idea to try and accomodate a standard bearing to replace #17.

Ok, It appears there is room for 6mm without any interference from the Shifter paw and the gears. You have the withe of the flange that needs to be cut down as the max clearence (.431")

what is the exact size of the Honda bearing that is needed?

The info in this post should have been put here as a continuation http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/viewtopic.php?t=3004&start=60&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=





The ID is 32mm OD is 65mm width is 14mm

I recieved the new 17mm wide bearing and installed it. As it turns out there was just enough clearence to install the shifter paw with the bearing in. I trimmed .118" off the shaft to accomadate the wider bearing and all looks good to go. Well with the exception of I am not pleased with the excessive play in the new bearing. My experience with ball bearings is they tend to have a zero to a slight side play in the inner race, however this one allows me to rock the shaft about an 1/8".

Bearing Installed with shifter Paw clearence




Bearing Installed with shifter Paw clearence




Shaft trimmed down




New Main Shaft replacement seals with 2 options for the right side shown on the left.

What was the brand of the bearing you think felt loose? Bearings have a internal clearance you can get them with different internal clearances like the crankshaft bearings are a C3 clearance, I cant remember now but I think the higher the number the greater the clearance like C4 would be looser, usually the larger clearance is for higher temp applications, bearings with higher temp rating bearings need to be warmed up before applying full loads, if the bearing you have is for a high temp application it will never get warm in the Pilot trans.

Any more I hate dealing with bearings, now days their are so many bearing whores on this planet you have no clue what to buy, back before the late 80's around here you could go into any bearing supply house and get NOTHING but a top quality bearing, no matter what brand they handed you it was of the highest quality, now days I don't even know what brand is considered quality, ALL the parts houses will sell you any bearing they can get I have even seen them packaged with NO NAME on the package just the bearing size.

What REALLY pisses me off is years ago you could take a failed bearing into the local bearing parts house and they could tell you why it failed if they were not sure they had a lab they could send it to for CSI then in a few days tell you exactly why it failed and how to avoid it happening again, sometimes they went with a bearing with more balls or to a double row bearing, sometimes it was a lubrication problem and they suggested a better grade and brand of grease, sometimes on sealed bearings it was a temp problem so they would take apart the new bearing clean out factory grease and replace it with a high temp grease and reinstall the seals, what ever the problem they cured it, they even had access to engineering if it was designed wrong, now days you go to the parts counter and its just some punk kid wearing 1/2 his tackle box on his face and tatts on his neck has a look on his face like he just got done burning a 'fatty' the guy knows as much about bearings as my wife.

One thing I still know for sure is a bearing is not a bearing....

Man hoser well said - how true - that made my day!!!!

The bearing is a Koyo and made in Japan. It is supposed to be a high quality manufacture. I am on the fence if I should run this bearing or not. I bought it from a local bearing house that I have been dealing with for years. I am going to call him and find out if its a high temp bearing or not. When I opened the trans up it had 2 Koyo's in it. I don't know if they had been replaced or not.

KOYO use to be a quality bearing and as far as I know they still are, HONDA uses them I have seen them in many of Hondas stuff.

I think your on the right track I would talk to your bearing supplier and see what he says see if they can do some digging to find out the clearance it sounds like a clearance thing to me.

I think your like me? have years of bearing experience on anything from a lawnmower to stuff used in a nuke plant, if your gut (experience) is sending you a message or throwing up a red flag I would not use the bearing, you still have the old bearing? how does it compare to the new?

I did some research on this bearing and below is what I found.

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This is a little strange, it's supposed to be an NTN 62/32 single row deep grove bearing.
Internal clearance should be 0.006~0.020 mm.

The NTN web site shows this as a 17mm width but my reference shows 14mm.

http://www.ntnamerica.com/datasheet.asp ... O=62%2F32&

So there is a definite conflict there.
The SC06A33 number may refer to a special bearing that has been narrowed to the 14mm dimension.

Yes - well maybe. Machine the step back 3mm on the shaft and the NTN 62/32 bearing should work.
Measure the old bearing first to make sure it is really 14mm wide.
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that's the clearance its suppose to be..

The number SC06A33 is the number taken off the OEM bearing I have here, guessing that number only means something to Honda?

Let us know how you make out.. .

from what I hear, KOYO is as good if not better than Nachi

i have KOYO mains that i am going to use in my pilot next rebuild


not much luck on the bearing either, my next step is to try and source it from outside the US

KOYO use to be a quality bearing and as far as I know they still are, HONDA uses them I have seen them in many of Hondas stuff.

I think your on the right track I would talk to your bearing supplier and see what he says see if they can do some digging to find out the clearance it sounds like a clearance thing to me.
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I have talked to them and he is calling the factory
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I think your like me? have years of bearing experience on anything from a lawnmower to stuff used in a nuke plant, if your gut (experience) is sending you a message or throwing up a red flag I would not use the bearing, you still have the old bearing? how does it compare to the new?
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Yep, that gut feeling is what it is and usally is warranted lol. The old bearing actually has a lot more slop in it. I can rock the shaft 3/16"
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I did some research on this bearing and below is what I found.

===============================================================
This is a little strange, it's supposed to be an NTN 62/32 single row deep grove bearing.
Internal clearance should be 0.006~0.020 mm.

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NTN was the bearing I was supposed to be getting, however the KOYO is what I got. .006" clearence seems a little excessive, however maybe they need to be made that way for the 12K RPM rating. Then it would seem that what I have is ok.
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The NTN web site shows this as a 17mm width but my reference shows 14mm.
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17mm is all I could find from any manufacture.
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http://www.ntnamerica.com/data.....%2F32&

So there is a definite conflict there.
The SC06A33 number may refer to a special bearing that has been narrowed to the 14mm dimension.
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I agree. Honda had them make it special.
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Yes - well maybe. Machine the step back 3mm on the shaft and the NTN 62/32 bearing should work.
Measure the old bearing first to make sure it is really 14mm wide.

They are 14mm and 17mm respectively as I measured them. So I cut .118" off the flange
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that's the clearance its suppose to be..

The number SC06A33 is the number taken off the OEM bearing I have here, guessing that number only means something to Honda?

Let us know how you make out.. .

Ok, the Local bearing reps solution is to send me one from a different Manufacture like SKF or NTN.

Did he think the current bearing was out of spec or is it suppose to be that way?

You have a surface grinder? What about taking a 17mm wide bearing and grinding it down 1.5mm each side?

Probably have to fill the bearing with wax for the grinding then melt it out once done?

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I really don't want to gamble with the bearings structure. Becides trimming the shaft was easy enough to do.

Koyo are also used in Toyota cars.

bearing metal is way too hard

Bearing update. I recieved the new NTN bearing and it has about the same amount of play as the Koyo bearing. So it appears the only thing to do at this point is run one of them and be done with it. Fortunatly I also have a bearing out on the end of my shaft to take up part of the load.