Board index

My Home Page

PilotOdyssey.com By hoser...


PilotOdyssey.com Chat Room

PilotOdyssey.com Photo Album

* Login  * FAQ
http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/smiley_cool.png PilotOdyssey.com Chat    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/find.png PilotOdyssey.com Google Search    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_tongue.png FL400 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_grin.png FL350 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_evilgrin.png FL250 Parts    http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/adm/images/imagemenu/emoticon_unhappy.png Admin Email   
It is currently Mon May 19, 2025 7:12 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
SO I have an FL250 (And an FL350 btw). This is for my FL250.

I did a complete Engine over-haul with new crank bearings, seals, gaskets, and all. Went .25mm o/b on the piston. Everything pressure checked perfect and all. I got a rebuild kit for both the carb and the fuel pump. Running stock low jet and a 120 high jet. I also have a 125 high jet in my bin.

I noticed the timing was way advanced just the other day so perhaps this was the problem, or perhaps the coil wire had a split in it that I fixed with a new wire. Either way I have not re-tested since fixing those two things.


The Engine runs perfect at low throttles. it starts right up with the choke after 1~2 pulls, and choke off it idles very very smooth. The Engine revs up pretty well, but there is absolutely no-go after about 1/2 throttle. I'd chauk this up to the above ignition problem, BUT I did notice that the exhaust didn't 2-stroke smoke as it should after 1/2 throttle. Its almost as if the Engine is running lean.

I'm running out of options and I don't know if I should run my Engine like this. The kart will only do about 25 mph but at that speed it has good power.

Oh, it does have what appears to be an old DG pipe.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3767
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Pull your plug,what does it loook like?
You have KNOWN clean fuel filter?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
Yes the fuel filter is brand new. I am using the stock factory fuel tank. The filter is staying clean. The air filter is an Uni. The carb was rebuilt also with new needle seat.

I have not done a plug chop yet but plan to next time with new plugs.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22617
Location: Chicago
Consider this viewtopic.php?f=1&t=909
http://vintagedirtbikeforums.alp-sys.co ... =21&t=3856


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
I believe my rebuild kit also came with a brand new Needle/NeedleJet but I'll check that again. Interesting to see that going down in jetting helped that OP's issues. I'll grab a 115 and 110 jet and new plugs before I go to Moto Mt.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3767
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Rightyho then,is your Exhaust totaly clean?
I have had many bought cheap 250iddy oddys,where owners gave up on PROPER analysis,to end up and sell cheap to get rid of.
From when they were built,to ??? F'k up owners over the years,the poor ol standard ody is a real worn out...

I had one that did'nt matter what I did to it,would'nt run right.
Carb,was serviced 3 times,everything else same.

THEN!...Cooked the whole exhaust system on fire coals, to get rid of all the decades of 2 st oil;goop cloggin' up the system.
Let it cool,bang it out with oh so soft pine :shock: Blow it out while twurlin' with the gardenblower
Did the trick by about 30% ? :-)
Does;'nt matter how much they put in the manuals,common sense will ALWAYS ASTOUND!.....................and result LOL


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
Not a bad idea man. I just bought a new fiber gasket too! Hope it comes off clean :)


BTW Pinesol works great for that type of thing. Its a mild paint thinner when used over time too.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7910
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
My money is on a fuel delivery problem. My brothers machine did exactly what you are saying here, runs good up to mid range and then flattens right out. No more pull. Fuel pump was toast. Delivered just enough to keep it running and then at full throttle Booooom. You said you did a rebuild. Why may I ask ?? Did you lean it out and pooofkaboom ??
My next theory is could it be the points ?? Didn't the fl250 have points ??


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
I bought the FL250 with a running motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )), but it needed a complete overhaul. The crank seal behind the stator was completely toast so my guess is the Engine leaned out or even ran away. The Engine would not hold any pressure at all as any pressure I gave it blew straight out the failed seal. The Engine suffered a catastrophy by way of the piston chunking and the top piston ring actually went missing destroying the head in the process. I I had really known this I would not have gotten this FL250, but it did have 115psi compression and did run with a half blown piston though not very well.

I know the original Engine failure was due to a failed crank seal. Now; the Engine has a completely rebuilt bottom and top end with new crank main bearings. The crank itself was fine with no play but every other moving and sealing part was replaced. The cyl was honed 0.25mm over and a doner cyl head was used in the rebuild. The Engine is now holding a pressure test and has 135~140 compression with about 1 hour on it.

The stock fuel pump was rebuilt, as was the carb. New filter also.


OK so I was able to get a bit of tuning happening and notice the following things:
1. I believe I set my points/timing incorrectly as the Engine is very sluggish. Timing is likely retarded a LOT, but that's OK atm because it may be easing the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) and resisting some ping/detonation in case of fueling problems.
2. 125 main jet and the kart is bogged down. I don't have a 115, but a 110 main causes a bit of top-end ping which is dangerous. (I LET OFF FAST! after the first TING)
3. I went with a 120 main, and the Engine will get to about 7,000 rpm as indicated on my tiny tach, but after about 5~10 seconds the RPMs will drop and the Engine starts to ping slightly (I LET OFF FAST! after the first TING)
4. So I believe there is a fuel delivery problem even though the pump was rebuilt.
5. If I ride around at about 2/3 throttle the Engine will eventually start to slow up and get very lazy (No pings). If I then let off for about 10 seconds the power will be restored. This is highly indicative of a fuel delivery problem as well.
6. I'm using a stock/Honda fuel restrictor T fitting and its all installed correctly.

My guess is this fuel pump just doesn't have the guts to keep up with the demand. Next time I start the kart I'm going to take a mid throttle measurement of how much fuel is delivered by way of the fuel pump over ~10 seconds. I don't want to convert the delivery system to gravity feed as my stock fuel tank looks to be in good shape.

Thank you


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22617
Location: Chicago
Check the Tee to make sure its still working and not just stuck open bypassing too much fuel?

Restrict the fuel line after the Tee and before the tank and try again to see if it helps?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
With Jet-Skis, we often put about a 70 sized main jet inline with the fuel return as to help with maintaining pressure and limiting too much bleed. Its another option.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7910
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
ZeroClient wrote:
I bought the FL250 with a running motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) ((Internal Combustion Engine?)), but it needed a complete overhaul. The crank seal behind the stator was completely toast so my guess is the Engine leaned out or even ran away. The Engine would not hold any pressure at all as any pressure I gave it blew straight out the failed seal. The Engine suffered a catastrophy by way of the piston chunking and the top piston ring actually went missing destroying the head in the process. I I had really known this I would not have gotten this FL250, but it did have 115psi compression and did run with a half blown piston though not very well.

I know the original Engine failure was due to a failed crank seal. Now; the Engine has a completely rebuilt bottom and top end with new crank main bearings. The crank itself was fine with no play but every other moving and sealing part was replaced. The cyl was honed 0.25mm over and a doner cyl head was used in the rebuild. The Engine is now holding a pressure test and has 135~140 compression with about 1 hour on it.

The stock fuel pump was rebuilt, as was the carb. New filter also.


OK so I was able to get a bit of tuning happening and notice the following things:
1. I believe I set my points/timing incorrectly as the Engine is very sluggish. Timing is likely retarded a LOT, but that's OK atm because it may be easing the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) ((Internal Combustion Engine?)) and resisting some ping/detonation in case of fueling problems.
2. 125 main jet and the kart is bogged down. I don't have a 115, but a 110 main causes a bit of top-end ping which is dangerous. (I LET OFF FAST! after the first TING)
3. I went with a 120 main, and the Engine will get to about 7,000 rpm as indicated on my tiny tach, but after about 5~10 seconds the RPMs will drop and the Engine starts to ping slightly (I LET OFF FAST! after the first TING)
4. So I believe there is a fuel delivery problem even though the pump was rebuilt.
5. If I ride around at about 2/3 throttle the Engine will eventually start to slow up and get very lazy (No pings). If I then let off for about 10 seconds the power will be restored. This is highly indicative of a fuel delivery problem as well.
6. I'm using a stock/Honda fuel restrictor T fitting and its all installed correctly.

My guess is this fuel pump just doesn't have the guts to keep up with the demand. Next time I start the kart I'm going to take a mid throttle measurement of how much fuel is delivered by way of the fuel pump over ~10 seconds. I don't want to convert the delivery system to gravity feed as my stock fuel tank looks to be in good shape.

Thank you


I will bet my rent money you got it now.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
Pump was barely returning fuel to the tank. I replaced with a $12 eBay mikuni pump and now get 3.5oz over 10 seconds at 3000 rpm.

Thanks!


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
The cart still wasn't running totally right with the new pump from what I could tell-but I did find another problem. The intake boot between the carb and Engine had two slits in it likely from a recent backfire. I can't believe how much they cost, but in the meantime I was able to reinforce with an outer layer of tightly fitted rubber heater hose so it won't leak for now. I found this leak when spraying carb cleaner stalled the Engine.

Hopefully that will help as well.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:19 am
Posts: 7910
Location: Hope, B.C Canada
ZeroClient wrote:
The cart still wasn't running totally right with the new pump from what I could tell-but I did find another problem. The intake boot between the carb and Engine had two slits in it likely from a recent backfire. I can't believe how much they cost, but in the meantime I was able to reinforce with an outer layer of tightly fitted rubber heater hose so it won't leak for now. I found this leak when spraying carb cleaner stalled the Engine.

Hopefully that will help as well.


Humour me bud. Restrict your return flow to the fuel tank with the suggestions above or make your own check valve like I did with a "very light" spring, a small ball bearing and some fittings. I don't know what kind of tooling you have but if you have a lathe you got it made.
I do not like the Honda "T" check valve. I think its crap.
In my opinion I feel you still have a fuel flow issue.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3767
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
Did you end up cooking/whacking/blowcleaning your exhaust out??? Image


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
I have not. It's a one piece DG pipe and I just got a new fiber gasket and ring for the Engine side. I'm going to test the cart one more time as the intake is now fixed, then if its still dog slow the exhaust is coming off for cleaning with something really strong.

I did try a 110 main jet as a return restrictor screwed inside of the Honda T, and it did not change very much if anything. I'll keep it in mind though.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:13 am
Posts: 3767
Location: PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA
So HOW long has your DG been on for? ENOUGH hours to line the pipe's insides...like cholesterol?

Done any plug chops yet? Pics of plugs?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
The plug looks OK but by now its pretty dark from oil.

What chemical works best for cutting 2-stroke crud sludge?


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22617
Location: Chicago
ZeroClient wrote:
The plug looks OK but by now its pretty dark from oil.

What chemical works best for cutting 2-stroke crud sludge?


Engine degreaser does a good job, be prepared to agitate it I use a old paint brush.

Seal the exhaust good to prevent leakage http://www.pilotodyssey.com/Siliconesealer.htm get your jetting right.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
I found a large piece of exhaust wrap lodged and stuck inside the pipe which was causing poor slow performance. It must have been blocking a ton of exhaust flow. The Engine is running a lot better now but I still think it may need a leaner needle and maybe a 115 or 117 main jet. I'll have to do some plug chops fir sure tho.

Also my timing may still be retarded so I'll figure that out too.

Thank you.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:07 am
Posts: 421
Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming
bugeye59 wrote:
Did you end up cooking/whacking/blowcleaning your exhaust out??? Image

I did and mine was running fine, you made it sound like such a good time i had to try! :-) :-) :-)


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:40 pm
Posts: 22617
Location: Chicago
ZeroClient wrote:
I found a large piece of exhaust wrap lodged and stuck inside the pipe which was causing poor slow performance. It must have been blocking a ton of exhaust flow. The Engine is running a lot better now but I still think it may need a leaner needle and maybe a 115 or 117 main jet. I'll have to do some plug chops fir sure tho.

Also my timing may still be retarded so I'll figure that out too.

Thank you.



What is exhaust wrap, any pictures?

Many of the Honda stock 2 stroke pipes I have seen came from the factory lined with a high density fiberglass insulation the insulation appears it has been formed in a mold and compressed to the same contours of the inside of the pipe then it is covered with a perforated metal to hold it into place the metal is spot welded to the outer metal of the exhaust pipe, many OEM silencers are also lined like this as well as a chambered silencer, it acts as a heat shield as well as lowering the noise levels.

Age, rust, vibration, harmonics from the combustion chamber cause the perforated metal to crack, break, become separated from the pipe then blocks the exhaust, first signs is finding what appears to be chunks of carbon in the spark arrested when it is cleaned closer CSI will tell you if its the fiber glass or not sometimes your lucky and find a chunk of metal that is not part of a piston and rings this is also a sign the pipe is failed on the inside.

The fix is to replace the pipe OR gently disassemble the pipe and remove the insulation and perforated metal then weld the pipe back together again being careful not to change any of the inside distentions of the pipe it will change the tune, another words you want to be aware of the kerf of the cut when cutting the pipe apart if you make a 1/8" wide cut then butt the parts together and weld you have just reduced the ID of the pipe and altered the design some.

Throwing this type of pipe into a fire and watching it burn the carbon off inside as you can imagine will cause you problems in the future if the heat of the fire affected the integrity of the OEM design.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
Exhaust wrap: http://www.jpcycles.com/product/308-157 ... aQodih4A3g

My guess is someone tried to fix a missing header gasket with this crap and it blew through and stopped in the pipe. I replaced the exhaust ring and fiber gasket but I missed the clog. I'm going off-roading tomorrow!!


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:33 am
Posts: 1070
So after about 20 minutes of trail riding I've come to realize that this FL250 still has no get up and go. It barely climbs a 25 degree hill at all. I don't think its the belt slipping as the motor (( Internal Combustion Engine ? )) is just completely loaded up and lagging - if it were the belt slipping the Engine would be out-reving the driven pulley Though it could still be a worn out belt I guess if engagement is always too tall. On the flats and downhills the cart is a lot of fun.

So I ordered a Honda part number jet needle / needle jet, plus a 118 and 115 main jet. I'll check timing one again; this time with a timing light and I'll put marks on the drive pulley. Otherwise this FL250 is honestly a turd which I hope to do something better with in time.


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Baidu [Spider], c5racer, Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group